Nitrates and Phosphates Impossible to Reduce - Vodka/Vinegar Dosing, Chaeto, Oversized Filtration

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Lil Puff

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you shouldnt be dosing with unreliable test kits. get good test kits. api is probably the worst.
Original test was done with a salifert. api was just to double check results of salifert as I had it on hand.
 
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Lil Puff

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I believe soft corals do not mind higher nitrates and phosphates.
Your limiting factor for your coral growth may be something else?
Have you considered that running higher carbon dosing may be growing bacteria that could be out competing your bacteria holobiont on your corals for growth?
Here is an article talking about dissolved organic carbon written by Salem Clemens on Reerbuilders.
Your chaeto looks to be growing very well such that it is outcompeting soft corals for certain trace elements that may help them grow. Iodine as well as certain others (sorry do not remember which others).
Yes, I have also read that they enjoy higher phosphates and nitrates which is why I am stumped. I have been dosing chaeto grow and iodine to replenish the trace elements the chaeto removes.
 

EvolvedMonkey

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I'm having the same problem as you.

Nitrates went as high as 150 ppm.

Got them down to 25ppm via nopox and water changes, but can't drop them any lower than that.
Phospates are .6 ppm.

I have chaeto that grows well, and an algae scrubber. I've been dosing nopox for 6 months. I'm using filter floss and filter socks that are changed every 3-4 days, wet skimming, etc.. Nitrates won't budge.

I'm feeding about 4 cubes a day (mostly to make sure my copperband eats enough) in a 160 gallon tank. Maybe I need to drop that.
 

Jimbo327

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I tested with api yesterday and it said 40ppm - 80ppm nitrates. I know its not reliable but it was the only thing I have on hand. I'm hesitant to inrease my carbon dosing more as 70mls daily already seems like an extremely high dose. At what point will they start to drop? Have you carbon dosed before? Where there any signs that the carbon dosing was working other than the drop of nitrates?
How much of that 70ml is vodka though? Vodka containers ~8x more carbon than vinegar. So dosing 10ml of vodka is equivalent of dosing 80ml of vinegar.
 

Saltees

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NO3 is will reduce proportional to your WC, I had over 100ppm got it down to 2ppm with close to 100% WC. PO4 is a different beast to be tamed with LaCl. I don’t have media in my sump, just a skimmer and Chaeto supercharged with BW Chaetogro.
 

schooncw

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I would take the bio balls out, and rinse them thoroughly to get all the detritus out of them, Then put them back.

I have a theory that some rock can absorb both phosphate and nitrate, then releases it back into the tank as nitrate and phosphate drop.

I would do some rather large water changes over the course of a couple days, with no feedings. This way you can monitor if the nitrate is being produced within the system or not. Measure before the water change, a couple hours after, and then a day after that.

And whatever you do, please don't listen to anyone that says, "you have to trim and throw out the cheato for it to export the nutrients". This is just flat out wrong. If the cheato absorbes nutrients, then the nutrients are no longer in the water column, and we only test for nutrients that are in the water column.
Live rock absolutely absorbs PO and releases it back! The rock in my 120 LPS dominant system is 32 years old and PO is constant at 1.0, regardless of what I do but my corals do very well and I have no nuisance algae at all. That, plus it's overstocked and overfed.
The only downside for me, is the lack of coralline algae, due of course, to my high nutrients but I gave up panicking a long time ago.
 

bezj

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Hi. There a brilliant article on here re a Nitrate Destroyer. I built one and it works amazingly well and very easy to control.
J
 

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Poor Man's Nutrients Control - Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer​

 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Yes, I have also read that they enjoy higher phosphates and nitrates which is why I am stumped. I have been dosing chaeto grow and iodine to replenish the trace elements the chaeto removes.

Are you tracking iodine? Some chaetogro users report excessive iodine levels even with no other dosing of iodine.

 

AquaNanoNZ

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Have you tested your RO/DI water? Filters replaced recently?
Maybe also test your newly made water to confirm it is actually at 0ppm
 

Aquariumaddictuk

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3/4 to 1 pound rock per gallon. Get your rock to this amount. Either sump and tank or tank only. Toss bio balls. Water changes and add sand to the tank, or sump where the bio balls are.
Agreed.zeovit in a BB tank with minimal rockwork didn't start working for me until I added some bottles of sand to sump & more marine pure.
 

Kscope

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Bio balls can become a nitrate factory. Some say no they don't, you have a nitrate problem so I would remove that possibility. They are not needed in a reef tank. Your rock is your bio filter. Water changes will reduce your nitrates. I would do large water change weekly until they get to where you want them
That type of bio-balls are much like dry rock that give your bacteria a place to replicate. I think the plastic bio-balls are the type that people refer to as nitrate factories, although wet/dry filters are still being used today.
 

pheyo

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I was in the same boat not long ago with Nitrates above 50ppm and Phosphate hanging close to 0.2 in a 150 gallon system.

My phosphates are now sitting below 0.05 with occasional use of lanthanum salts. Every time it creeps over 0.1, I would dose ~10mls for a few days till it drops below 0.05.

Nitrates - I run my refugium and protein skimmer 24/7. I also dose NoPox (beware I'm pretty certain this killed some of my Euphyllias) everything else seems fine.
I've also removed all filter media (Matrix/Bioballs etc) so no gunk can build up.

Keeping it real simple Overflow -> Reef Mat -> Filter Sock (change once a week) -> Refugium -> protein skimmer. I've also upped my flow to make sure as much detritus and left over food makes it way to the sump.

10% water change weekly, also I vacuum my sand bed during water change.

Nitrates have now dropped from 55ppm to now around 15ppm over the last 2 months.

Hope this gives you some ideas.
 

Saltees

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Yes, I always have high NO3 till I threw away all my bio media in my sump. They are frequently caked with slime from my light carbon dosing. Without media, my skimmer can effectively removing the slime. Now my NO3 is zero for the past 6 months, and my SPS are loving it, cos they are getting it directly from the fishes. PO4 is maintained at 0.1 +/- 0.05 with 1ml of LaCl daily. A football sized chaeto is in there as an insurance. These pretty much what’s keeping my nutrients in check.
 

Steve Fast

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I have a 600 gallon system and dose about 1 gallon per week of 175 ml vodka, 1.5 cups dextrose, and 45% vinegar. This is the vinegar I prefer… they were very helpful answering questions about their product.

Nature's Freedom 45% Concentrated Vinegar, 4 Gallons - Dilutes to 36 Gallons - 9X Strength Multi-Purpose Solution https://a.co/d/32reaNk

I once had bioballs but didn't like the flow through them and the sludge that covered them. So I made something similar to this… I have these on all my systems… they are used for koi ponds. You can find instructions online.


Hope this helps
 
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Lil Puff

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Update:
  • I made Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer
  • Upgraded refugium light from 15w too 30w
  • I did a huge water change - all water in sump and 10cm left in tank
  • Added sand in the sump
  • Removed Bioballs
Current Parameters
Phosphate: 0.14ppm
Nitrate: 50ppm
Magnesium: 1320ppm
Calcium: 405ppm
Alkalinity: 7.85dKH

The output of the Nitrate Destroyer is still the equivelent to the DT's Nitrate so it is yet to kick in. I added my carbon dosing line into the top of it. I reduced the flow today seeing they were equivelent so I will see if that helps. The output was also blocked with white slime/mucus. I am also unsure how with such a large water change my nitrates only dropped 50ppm. Phosphates dropped significantly though which is good.

IMG_8384.jpg


IMG_8385.jpg
 

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The nitrate destroyer should work, but if you want a simpler approach, I suggest adding 3" on sand to the bottom of that tank. I have found the modestly deep sand beds will generally limit nitrates to a few ppm. Having a bare bottomed predator tank is a recipe for high nitrates in my experience.
 
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Lil Puff

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The nitrate destroyer should work, but if you want a simpler approach, I suggest adding 3" on sand to the bottom of that tank. I have found the modestly deep sand beds will generally limit nitrates to a few ppm. Having a bare bottomed predator tank is a recipe for high nitrates in my experience.
Before I upgraded tanks I had a deep sandbed of over 3” but I could never keep it clean. It would always fill up with detritus and due to being a predator tank I can’t keep any clean up crew other than urchins. Even with vacuuming every water change it would always fill up with detritus. Do you have any suggestions on how to keep it clean and free of detritus easier?

Thanks, Seth
 

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