Nitrite problem (Randy, help us lol)

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nick0206

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Hello.
The topic of nitrites is also very interesting to me.
Tank 75 gallons (55 + 20). Launched more than 3 years ago, of which 1.5 years on a zeolite base (Korallen-Zucht).
ULNS system, but I've been struggling with nutrient levels for a year and a half.
If the phosphates can be kept under control, then the nitrite-nitrate level is not reset.
The corals look very good and I would not strive for full zeroing, but I have a lot of corals (50 SPS and 30 LPS) and I want to feed them with different food, which I have not allowed myself for more than a year.
Water changes weekly 12 gallons.
I use Tropic Marine tests.
Nitrite - 0.05 ppm
Nitrate - 2 ppm
And these values have been holding for more than a year.
I suspect my skimmer is of low efficiency and have already ordered a new one (Tunze 9410 DS).
What other opinions?
Thanks
 

brandon429

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Nick

nitrite has no bearing in reefing, it’s neutral impact and .05 is fine, so there’s nothing wrong with your system or the skimmer. If you cease testing for nitrite/ don’t own the kit / reefing becomes more enjoyable.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Nitrate - 2 ppm
And these values have been holding for more than a year.

If the nitrite value is above 0.02 ppm, you have no nitrate.

But I do not know if the nitrite value is accurate.
 

nick0206

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If the nitrite value is above 0.02 ppm, you have no nitrate.

But I do not know if the nitrite value is accurate.
Thanks Randy.
I do the tests with Tropic Marine tests. Nitrates from 2 to 5 ppm.
Tropic Marine tests are quite accurate and like all nitrite / nitrate tests, their readings are measured by the level of color change.
I am familiar with at least five people who work with zeolites according to the "Korallen-Zucht" ULNS system, not counting those who have the "Aquaforest" system (also on zeolites).
With the same test set from Tropic Marine, they have nitrite / nitrate either completely 0 or a barely discernible pink shade of water.
I gave them my water for testing and their tests showed the same values as mine.
Since both they and I maintain the tanks according to the same system (Korallen-Zucht), I am trying to understand why for more than a year my nitrite / nitrate has not gone to 0?
 
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Lasse

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@nick0206 Are you using the Tropic Marine Pro test and compensate for nitrite readings? Your nitrite level in the Oceamo test seems to be high - IMO. By the way - Ocemo use a method there NO2 not interfere with NO3.

Are you running the zeolite method fully out today with daily rinsing of the zeolites? and with their addition of DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon)?

Sincerely Lasse
 

nick0206

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@nick0206 Are you using the Tropic Marine Pro test and compensate for nitrite readings? Your nitrite level in the Oceamo test seems to be high - IMO. By the way - Ocemo use a method there NO2 not interfere with NO3.

Are you running the zeolite method fully out today with daily rinsing of the zeolites? and with their addition of DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon)?

Sincerely Lasse
Yes, I am still using the Korallen-zucht zeolite method.
I switched to this method from the Tropic Marine method, with which I was never able to stabilize the system.
In general, a 75 gallon (300 liters) tank is difficult to keep stable. For a year and a half, I have not been able to get a full ULNS. Yes, I have nitrites and nitrates and phosphates. I consulted both on the Zeovit.com forum and with friends who also use zeolites and I think that I am resigned to this, especially since the corals look colorful.
One of the suspicions why this is so, perhaps, lies in the shape of my tank. This is a 65x65x65 cube. Due to the depth, perhaps not all water is filtered (although I may be saying stupid things).
Yes, I add DOC from Korallen-zucht (Zeo-start and zeo-food) and zeolites from them.
I shake the zeolite reactor every day, and sometimes twice a day)
Salt Tropic Marine Pro.
Hanna 774 (ULR) phosphate tests, the rest of the Tropic Marine tests (Alc, Mg, Ca, NO2, NO3)
But I'm not desperate yet and will try to do something else, for example, add Maxspect's bio-spheres unto the sump to the very surface (for breeding aerobic bacteria) to reduce nitrites.
If that works, I'll add a bio-spheres to the bottom of the water to remove nitrates.
 

brandon429

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Nick your tank is fine it’s well past cycling chart dates for compliance and nitrite is neutral in reefing. It’s causing you unneeded stress, cease testing for nitrite as Randy’s article mentions.


your corals and animals are fine because it’s neutral, cease testing for nitrite and your reefing enjoyment increases and reaction purchases will decrease.
 

brandon429

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Please post a full tank picture of your reef

the surface area to be shown in the display is why you wouldn’t buy and add more surface area based on the measure of a fully neutral parameter. Nitrite troubleshooters never ask to see the functioning reef at all, a hyperfocus on nitrite is created if we exclude the overall tank health pictures often show.





see how in that article it doesn’t say to measure nitrite in a post cycle reef and then add more surface area if some is present


I would be interested to see which article you are using to consider increasing surface area / responding to nitrite.

Lasse just posted the other day some digital nitrite measures from a cycled reef and they weren’t zero. They ran in the hundredths ppm, your levels above are perfect and warrant no reaction.
 
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Lasse

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Yes, I am still using the Korallen-zucht zeolite method.
I switched to this method from the Tropic Marine method, with which I was never able to stabilize the system.
In general, a 75 gallon (300 liters) tank is difficult to keep stable. For a year and a half, I have not been able to get a full ULNS. Yes, I have nitrites and nitrates and phosphates. I consulted both on the Zeovit.com forum and with friends who also use zeolites and I think that I am resigned to this, especially since the corals look colorful.
One of the suspicions why this is so, perhaps, lies in the shape of my tank. This is a 65x65x65 cube. Due to the depth, perhaps not all water is filtered (although I may be saying stupid things).
Yes, I add DOC from Korallen-zucht (Zeo-start and zeo-food) and zeolites from them.
I shake the zeolite reactor every day, and sometimes twice a day)
Salt Tropic Marine Pro.
Hanna 774 (ULR) phosphate tests, the rest of the Tropic Marine tests (Alc, Mg, Ca, NO2, NO3)
But I'm not desperate yet and will try to do something else, for example, add Maxspect's bio-spheres unto the sump to the very surface (for breeding aerobic bacteria) to reduce nitrites.
If that works, I'll add a bio-spheres to the bottom of the water to remove nitrates.
It is an interesting case - because what¨s you say about your friends Zeolit System - the Zeolite method normally give very (if any) low nitrite readings - and sometimes very low nitrate readings. IMO - it is mainly because of three reasons.

1: A Zeolite system often include an oversized skimmer - this means that the tank is very well aerated - produced CO2 will be degassed and pH rise. Ammonium converts into ammoniac when pH rise and it will also be degassed. Proteins and amino acids (rich in N) will be denatured by the air/water mix and catched as skimate in the skimmers cup. This lower the overall load of ingoing ammonium.

2) The zeolite reactor - I do not believe one second of the theory that says that zeolite catch ammonium that nitrification bacteria afterwords can grip and process into NO2. It is true that Zeolites can trap ammonium with an ion change process - but can the bacteria process the catched ammonium? IMO - not - this of mainly two reasons - nitrification bacteria (AOB) is around 50 times larger than these small pores in the zeolit that catch ammonium molecules. AOA (Ammonium Oxidizing Archaea) is smaller but still to big in order to reach the trapped NH4 molecules. The second reason - all articles I have seen about nitrification highlight that it is only possible for AOB, AOA and NOB (Nitrite Oxidizing Bacteria) to process ammonium in a solution.

But the zeolite reactor can act as an very good nitrification reactor - especially according to the second step NO2 - NO3. Why? The organisms involved in the nitrification cycle are autotrophs - this means that they need inorganic C (in this case HCO3/CO3 - IMO). They even need inorganic N for growth (NH4, NO2 and NO3) and inorganic P (Dissolved PO4) - their energy they get from the energy differences there is between NH3/NH4 - NO2 and NO2- NO3. They - especially the NOB responsible for NO2-NO3 - grow very slowly - between 12 - 24 hours doubling time. However - most bacteria in our systems is heterotrophic bacteria. They need organic C (in organic matter or as DOC (dissolved Organic Carbon)). organic N and P but they can also (at least some) process dissolved inorganic N and P) Normally - it is the amount of DOC that limit the growth of heterotrophic bacteria in an aquarium. When they can access DOC - they can grow very fast - doubling time from 15 minutes. For fastest growth - both type of bacteria needs oxygen (some heterotrophs can grow without O too - but that's another discussion) and the create biofilms - it means space to attach on. The method to add DOC into an aquarium was developed because people want to use the heterotrophs ability to take up inorganic P and N from the water, hence lower NO3 and PO4 (DOC and anaerobic conditions will also take down the NO3 concentrations - denitrification - a plus) But if you add DOC into the aquarium - you can risk that the heterotrophs will concur out the nitrification organism from space and oxygen because the heterotrophs grow much faster. The method to shake the zeolite reactor was developed because people want to deliver the bacteria mulm into the polyps of the corals but it will also favour the nitrifying organisms - the heterotrophs will be washed away once a day - leaving new space for the autotrophs. It is the ideal nitrification filter.

3) DOC will favour denitrification in anaerobic environment in the aquarium - lower the NO3 concentrations

I´m sorry for all my text but it is needed in order to understand how I would act in a situation like this. Even if you follow all steps that´s normally would favour the second step NO2 - NO3 - you still have high NO2 concentrations. The Oceamo result of 0.116 NO2 is high for a mature system and indicate that the nitrification step 2 works badly. I can see three ways out from this

1) Get a larger skimmer but I think that you need to address the bad second steps nitrification too

2) Lower the DOC - but if so - you will leave the Zeolite world.

3) temporarily increase the inorganic dissolved PO4 in your water. It will mostly favour the autotrophs but can give the heterotrophs a better growth too - you may therefore have to lower your DOC addition a little. I would try to reach around 0.05 - 0.08 ppm PO4 for a while and follow the NO2 and NO3 closely. When your NO3 starts to go down (because of heterotrophic uptake and denitrification) you can slowly decrease the PO4 concentration - especially if NO2 is near zero.

But I'm not desperate yet and will try to do something else, for example, add Maxspect's bio-spheres unto the sump to the very surface (for breeding aerobic bacteria) to reduce nitrites.
If that works, I'll add a bio-spheres to the bottom of the water to remove nitrates.
I do not think this will work - you have - IMO - one of the best working nitrification methods - a zeolite reactor that is "backflushed" once a day and still get NO2 problem. The anaerobic on the bottom - maybe for the nitrate - but I do not think you can address your nitrification problem with more space. There is some other problem and IMO - it can be the very low reading of PO4 together with a too small skimmer for the zeovit system you want to create.

My reading of nitrite in a mature system was between 0.01 - 0.03 - on occasion of 0.14 but that was after a overdosing of iodine that probably killed some of my nitrification bacteria.

Your Oceamo test report 0.025 ppm in PO4 (photometric - it means it has detected only dissolved PO4) and 0.01 ppm as P (ICP) it means that you have around 0.005 ppm in organic P - it means a rather particle free water

I hope you get some ideas how to proceed - but I would start with the PO4 concentration

Sincerely Lasse
 
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nick0206

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Это интересный случай - потому что то, что вы говорите о своих друзьях, Zeolit System - метод цеолита обычно дает очень (если вообще есть) низкие показания нитритов, а иногда и очень низкие показания нитратов. ИМО - это в основном по трем причинам.

1: Система цеолита часто включает в себя скиммер увеличенного размера - это означает, что резервуар очень хорошо аэрируется - произведенный CO2 будет дегазирован, а pH повысится. Аммоний превращается в аммиак при повышении pH и также дегазируется. Белки и аминокислоты (богатые азотом) денатурируются смесью воздух / вода и улавливаются как скимейт в чаше скиммера. Это снижает общую нагрузку поступающего аммония.

2) Цеолитный реактор - я не верю ни одной секунде теории, которая гласит, что цеолит улавливает аммоний, который потом могут захватывать нитрификационные бактерии и превращать его в NO2. Это правда, что цеолиты могут улавливать аммоний с помощью процесса изменения иона, но могут ли бактерии перерабатывать уловленный аммоний? ИМО - нет - это в основном по двум причинам - нитрификационные бактерии (АОБ) примерно в 50 раз больше, чем эти маленькие поры в цеолите, которые улавливают молекулы аммония. AOA (Археи, окисляющие аммоний) меньше, но все же слишком велики, чтобы достичь захваченных молекул NH4. Вторая причина - все статьи, которые я видел о нитрификации, подчеркивают, что только AOB, AOA и NOB (нитритокисляющие бактерии) могут обрабатывать аммоний в растворе.

Но цеолитный реактор может действовать как очень хороший реактор нитрификации, особенно в соответствии со второй ступенью NO2 - NO3. Почему? Организмы, участвующие в цикле нитрификации, являются автотрофами - это означает, что им нужен неорганический C (в данном случае HCO3 / CO3 - IMO). Им даже нужен неорганический азот для роста (NH4, NO2 и NO3) и неорганический P (растворенный PO4) - свою энергию они получают из разницы энергий между NH3 / NH4 - NO2 и NO2-NO3. Они, особенно NOB, отвечающие за NO2-NO3, растут очень медленно - между 12-24 часами удвоения. Однако большинство бактерий в наших системах - это гетеротрофные бактерии. Им нужен органический углерод (в органическом веществе или в виде DOC (растворенный органический углерод)). органические N и P, но они также могут (по крайней мере частично) перерабатывать растворенные неорганические N и P) Обычно - это количество DOC, которое ограничивает рост гетеротрофных бактерий в аквариуме. Когда они могут получить доступ к DOC - они могут расти очень быстро - время удваивается с 15 минут. For самый быстрыйрост - оба типа бактерий нуждаются в кислороде (некоторые гетеротрофы могут расти и без кислорода - но это уже другой разговор), так и для создания биопленок - это означает место для прикрепления. Метод добавления DOC в аквариум был разработан, потому что люди хотят использовать способность гетеротрофов поглощать неорганические P и N из воды, следовательно, более низкие NO3 и PO4 (DOC и анаэробные условия также снижают концентрации NO3 - денитрификация - a плюс) Но если вы добавите DOC в аквариум - вы рискуете, что гетеротрофы вытеснят нитрификационный организм из космоса и кислорода, потому что гетеротрофы растут намного быстрее. Метод встряхивания цеолитного реактора был разработан, потому что люди хотят доставить бактерии mulm в полипы кораллов, но он также будет благоприятствовать нитрифицирующим организмам - гетеротрофы будут смываться один раз в день, оставляя новое место для автотрофов. Это идеальный фильтр для нитрификации.

3) DOC будет способствовать денитрификации в анаэробной среде аквариума - снизить концентрацию NO3.

Прошу прощения за весь мой текст, но он нужен для того, чтобы понять, как я буду действовать в подобной ситуации. Даже если вы выполните все шаги, которые обычно отдают предпочтение второму шагу NO2 - NO3, вы все равно будете иметь высокие концентрации NO2. Результат Oceamo 0,116 NO2 является высоким для зрелой системы и указывает на то, что этап нитрификации 2 работает плохо. Я вижу три выхода из этого

1) Купите скиммер большего размера, но я думаю, что вам также нужно решить проблему плохой нитрификации на втором этапе.

2) Понизьте DOC - но если это так - вы покинете мир цеолитов.

3) временно увеличьте содержание растворенного в воде неорганического PO4. В основном это будет благоприятствовать автотрофам, но может улучшить рост и гетеротрофов - поэтому вам, возможно, придется немного снизить добавку DOC. Я бы попытался на какое-то время достичь уровня PO4 в районе 0,05–0,08 частей на миллион и внимательно следить за NO2 и NO3. Когда уровень NO3 начинает снижаться (из-за гетеротрофного поглощения и денитрификации), вы можете постепенно снижать концентрацию PO4, особенно если NO2 близок к нулю.


Я не думаю, что это сработает - у вас есть - ИМО - один из лучших рабочих методов нитрификации - цеолитный реактор, который "продувают обратной продувкой" один раз в день, но при этом все еще остаются проблемы с NO2. Анаэробный слой внизу - возможно, для нитрата - но я не думаю, что вы сможете решить проблему нитрификации с большим пространством. Есть еще одна проблема и ИМО - это может быть очень низкое показание PO4 вместе со слишком маленьким скиммером для системы zeovit, которую вы хотите создать.

Мое значение нитрита в зрелой системе составляло 0,01–0,03 - иногда 0,14, но это было после передозировки йода, которая, вероятно, убила некоторые из моих нитрификационных бактерий.

В вашем отчете об испытаниях Oceamo 0,025 ppm в PO4 (фотометрический - это означает, что он обнаружил только растворенный PO4) и 0,01 ppm в виде P (ICP), это означает, что у вас около 0,005 ppm в органическом P - это означает, что вода довольно свободна от частиц.

Надеюсь, у вас есть идеи, как действовать дальше, но я бы начал с концентрации PO4.

С уважением, Лассе
Thanks Lasse.
Described in great detail.
1. I have a skimmer from Korallen-Zucht, but from the very beginning it made problems for me for some reason, until the Aquabee 3000 pump failed. After repairing it, the skimmer worked well for some time, but then other problems began, so I bought Tunze 9410DC, designed for a system of 1200 liters or for a system with an SPS up to 300 liters (at me a pump of 1200 liters).
I have ordered replacement parts from Korallen-Zucht and am looking forward to returning the old skimmer.
When the old skimmer worked properly, even not on wet skimming the phosphates were 0 (Hannah 713). Until the ordered Tunze skimmer arrived, I borrowed a Chinese skimmer with a pump of 900 liters from a friend. Phosphates jumped to 0.09, and managed to lower the maximum to 0.06. (Hannah 744).
With Tunze 9410DC it was possible to achieve phosphate stability at the level of 0.03 (Hanna 744) but only by wet skimming (emptying the cup every day).
Moreover, all these experiments with skimmers practically did not affect the level of denitrification.
The nitrite level is almost constant from 0.02 to 0.05 (Test HO2 from Tropic Marine) and nitrate from 2 to 5 (Test HO3 from Tropic Marine).
You should not pay attention to the results of Oseamo on nitrite, because this coincided with the problems with the skimmer.
 

Lasse

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You should not pay attention to the results of Oseamo on nitrite, because this coincided with the problems with the skimmer.
I´m not sure on this because the unusual high nitrite indicate that you have some problems accordin to have the second step of nitrification to work properly. When NH3/NH4 is converted to nitrite in the first step - skimmer have no influence on the nitrite concentration.

Sincerely Lasse
 

brandon429

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Lasse




It would state in Randy’s article if there was a need to test for nitrite




Nicks biofilter isn’t stuck or phosphate limited at all, you could just inform him of that detail, or ask to see proof pics and those will show a perfectly normal reef.
 
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brandon429

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The reason it’s important to tell Nick his system is fine is so that rumors don’t start back up in the hobby that some display systems will be harmed if it’s not measured.

It sets backwards updated cycling science to tell some readers their post cycle reef tank has a problem with biofilters when there’s no problem.

If pics happen to confirm there’s a problem then that will make an interesting case to see.
 
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nick0206

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I´m not sure on this because the unusual high nitrite indicate that you have some problems accordin to have the second step of nitrification to work properly. When NH3/NH4 is converted to nitrite in the first step - skimmer have no influence on the nitrite concentration.

Sincerely Lasse
Weird. Because, if I understand the Zeovit filtration system correctly, a good powerful skimmer removes organic matter before it passes the first stage from HO4 to HO2, plus the rest of the work is completed by zeolites.
This is my tank

20210628_194817_1.jpg
 

Lasse

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Around 80 % of the surplus N from the fishes does not come as organic matter and the break down of organic matter from the heterophic bacteria does not either come as organic N. It comes as inorganic N - as NH4/NH3. The zeolite does not stop the nitrification cycle NH4/NH3 -> NO2 -> NO3. Normally it is seamless but if there is some disturbances - the second stage NO2 -> NO3 can halt and build up NO2 that does not directly processes into NO3. If you have NO2 in your system - there is only 2 possible sources IMO. Not properly working nitrification or not properly working denitrifikation.

The skimmer can only remove inorganic N as NH3 - cause it is a gas - not NH4 directly and especially not NO2 and NO3

The tank is beautiful but you asked why your NO2 levels was high and I try to explain some reason for it.

IMO - change to a more oversized will help to aerate out NH3 - therefore decrease the amount of NH4 and the need for nitrification - but I doubt it will solve your problem to 100 % with both high NO2 and NO3 (for a zeovit system)

Sincerely Lasse
 
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IS RTN/STN MORE COMMON THAN IT USED TO BE?

  • Yes! I (and/or my friends) have experienced it more than it used happen.

    Votes: 8 16.3%
  • No. I think it's about the same.

    Votes: 15 30.6%
  • No. It's actually less common than it used to be.

    Votes: 3 6.1%
  • I've never experienced RTN/STN.

    Votes: 9 18.4%
  • What's RTN/STN?

    Votes: 14 28.6%
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