Nitrites stuck above 2ppm for 2 weeks - cycle stuck?

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Crustaceon

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There are no nitrite-sensitive organisms in reef tanks. It literally takes hundreds of ppm to bother shrimp larvae in saltwater, because the reason nitrite bothers fish in fresh water is it's a chlorine antagonist in fish's gills. Marine tanks are literally 19,000ppm chlorine - there's so much chlorine that it doesn't matter.

The idea that nitrite is toxic is carried over from freshwater fishkeepers - and is a myth.


I don't even know how many tanks I've cycled at this point - hundreds? And I've never seen one get cloudy. Cloudiness is not a normal part of cycling a reef tank.
Good for you.
 
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92Miata

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Good for you.
Ah, yes, the "I'm spreading misinformation and I don't care" answer.

You're wrong here. Cycling is about nitrosomonas, and nitrobacter - and neither is present in the water column in any great number. Any sort of cloudy bloom you're seeing has nothing to do with them.
 

Crustaceon

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The main question here is the actual toxicity of the level of nitrite present in the tank. You can absolutely have a "cycled" tank with some degree of nitrites which is why "fish cycling" tanks actually worked. While I wouldn't start by adding nitrite sensitive creatures first, I would add most fish our hobby sees and WELL before any health issues come up, the normal biological process of that added fish is going to carry the tank through any remaining cycling that it needs. There of course is more maturation that our tanks go through biome-wise over the course of a year. Obviously we don't have to wait that long to add livestock. This is why I go with the "clouding" indicator instead of swishing a beaker in my lab until I see "ideal" parameters. Things don't have to be chemically "ideal" from our input and I don't need a test kit to tell me the conditions for bacterial grow and denitrification are present when the water in the tank, literally in front of me, is undergoing a bacteria bloom. We're only starting the process and IME, nature does a fantastic job of completing the process. We're likely slowing down that process by interfering with it like we're punching in code and expecting instantaneous results.
Correction: “Ammonia” and not “nitrite”.
 
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revhtree

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I've cleaned up a few posts. Friends please be nice to one another! Thank you.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Interesting fact

if we study 30 pages of posts in the disease forum, folks who did a one to two month common buildup cycle / waited till zero nitrite as we are told to do/ are 95% of all help posts.

ergo, fish disease incidence is not lessened by waiting longer than it takes to control ammonia, be that within hour 1 of setup due a bottled additive or after 45 days waiting for common peak/trough of nitrogen species from 2 ppm ammonia dosing


making points using posted thread patterns others can inspect for toxicity trending is a neat way to proof things in reefing in my opinion

my 33 page cycling thread is a test of purposefully stocking reef tanks with fish before nitrite is controlled. Each entrant, for 33 pages so far, is nitrite positive when we add fish, shrimp and corals.


we name an exact start date for every reef tank in that thread vs open ended wait cycling, and that date is set around ammonia control dates from a cycling chart, applied to all cycles that post there.



we have very much isolated and proved nitrite neutrality in reefing, as the article says. if it’s not evident to skeptics now, it will be by page 100 of constant new tank examples.

the thread is a collection of folks we can send messages to get updates or just watch a given entrant’s thread history to see how they fared using updated cycling science.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Short list of updated cycling science rules in effect for the hobby, that I can see from posts over the years and everyone’s average seneye postings in seneye tanks:

-no reef cycle stalls, when we overdo or underdo givings in a reef cycle, simple time makes up for the variation. A home is always exchanging bacteria + food in any open-topped heated container of water. No cycle can starve, get weak, or undo when saltwater is kept in the tank and the tank exchanges contaminations with the home (re DJ City’s three year live rock fallow study, same cycle ability as before the test)

The timing listed on a 70+ yr old cycling chart is darn accurate for inherent ammonia control dates. All stuck cycle posts are in direct conflict with cycling charts and they’re not using digital nh3 measurements to claim the stall. It’s api or Red Sea.


-no cycle ever, ever, ever, ever ever gets undone at month nine, BStone.


-nitrite is of such low impact it’s best not to own the kit in display reefing. It will cause you to veer away from identifying fish disease as the loss causative, which will be the case when applicable. As Lasse and Randy and MNFish have posted, managing nitrite in freshwater and in quarantine / hyposalinity systems is warranted as it becomes toxic there and ammonia does not / a reversal based on salt levels

- nobody with a calibrated seneye, one that reads in spec on a running reef for nh3, has ever documented a failure to control ammonia outside a multiple fish kill event after a cycle was set. Not one. I’ll pay a paypal bounty big enough to buy the first poster a cheeseburger and fries if they post one example. No cycle starves, stalls, or gets weak when kept open topped in a home.

-entire forums exist online to study and remedy fish disease in marine systems. Zero forums on the internet exist to study stalled cycles, theres a reason for that. It’s a lark claim fed by owners of non digital kits or falsely attributing nitrite toxicity to reef systems in any setting a cycler will ever see.


it’s amazing that since reefing began online, there must be four million stall cycle / api posts and yet not one forum exists to study that occurrence in reefing. Such a forum can only work if the public is using digital ammonia tracking, with analog u get a repeat of the last two decades of .5/ my reef is dying but all my fish look fine posts.


-ammonia does not rise up to kill fish in any reef display. Fish kills due to disease or hardware issues or poisoning left in the system too long are the sole cause of ammonia issues in reef displays, there are no other causes logged by anyone. I don’t count kids dumping in all the food as a natural event. If your reef has been treated normal it’s cycle will never ever ever ever get undone, that’s updated cycling science- inherent trust without testing.


final takeaway

old cycling science: your reef is going to die if you don’t buy or do or boost up X


new cycling science: dump in the bottle of bac and a pinch of fish food. go read the fish disease forum all week and when you are done, your tank is cycled and you can permanently forget about its cycle. Implement what you’ve read if you want to lessen the true impact to your fish‘s longevity.
 
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KrisReef

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I've cleaned up a few posts. Friends please be nice to one another! Thank you.
Good Morning rev.
I take a lot of offense at this post, and disagree with it one hundred percent. I know you want folks to enjoy the site and be civil and courteous but what's bothering me is that of all the nonsense I have posted over the years, none of those posts has been whitewashed by you or the other mods. Well maybe one or two?

Tank crashes and algae blooms are a natural part of the fallen world. Our posts could reflect the situation more honestly if our goal is to be one hundred percent natural in our reefing?

Thanks for the grace. Thanks for the site where we can erupt with joy or sorrow as the tanks turn.

Blessed are those who's righteousness is from faith in God. I'd be lost to the eternal fire if I had to come up with it.

just practicing my writing interaction skills on here along with trying to stay positive and helpful as I wait to hear the final trumpet blast. I'm terrified of that day. I needed to get that out of my sump. Good day to you reefists!

Dr Pepper Japan GIF
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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I personally won’t pay for a digital ammonia test kit


we don’t need digital testers to do cycles, at home or for other’s reef tanks remotely, they’re costly and impractical


seneye and the hanna meter nh3 are handy referees. Anytime someone makes a claim about a cycle, we can check seneye logs to see if such trending exists, and it never does. What exists is total ammonia control start to finish and all stuck cycle posts are from non digital tank owners, or an occasional seneye owner who did not know you had to prep slides.



if someone does not own a seneye, we still know the date their cycle will be done because of the seneye owners who have posted their nh3 trending.


we all stack rocks in center swirling mass, we all control ammonia in scale. The one gallon pico reef, the 1000 gallon eighty fish tank reef, you’d be amazed how tightly they both control ammonia nh3. The scaling is amazing, but only when you see it digitally.
 

Crustaceon

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Good Morning rev.
I take a lot of offense at this post, and disagree with it one hundred percent. I know you want folks to enjoy the site and be civil and courteous but what's bothering me is that of all the nonsense I have posted over the years, none of those posts has been whitewashed by you or the other mods. Well maybe one or two?

Tank crashes and algae blooms are a natural part of the fallen world. Our posts could reflect the situation more honestly if our goal is to be one hundred percent natural in our reefing?

Thanks for the grace. Thanks for the site where we can erupt with joy or sorrow as the tanks turn.

Blessed are those who's righteousness is from faith in God. I'd be lost to the eternal fire if I had to come up with it.

just practicing my writing interaction skills on here along with trying to stay positive and helpful as I wait to hear the final trumpet blast. I'm terrified of that day. I needed to get that out of my sump. Good day to you reefists!

Dr Pepper Japan GIF
I understand 100% why he has to do this, because if not, I like many other people will go down the rabbit hole and get very negative very quickly. I don't want to do that, but I'm only human. I have asked to have my account deleted and all comments removed because this obviously is not a fun or healthy exercise for me. Maybe I'll come back, maybe not. If I do return, i'm definitely going to stay away from comment threads that sound like scientific journals that are intended to supposedly help "new reefers" but probably cause much of our new "what's going on with my tank" comment threads. If they're the experts on those subjects, then they should have all of of those comments directed their way and I can do something else in peace.
 
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KrisReef

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I understand 100% why he has to do this, because if not, I like many other people will go down the rabbit hole and get very negative very quickly. I don't want to do that, but I'm only human. I have asked to have my account deleted and all comments removed because this obviously is not a fun or healthy exercise for me. Maybe I'll come back, maybe not. If I do return, i'm definitely going to stay away from comment threads that sound like scientific journals that are intended to supposedly help "new reefers" but probably cause much of our new "what's going on with my tank" comment threads. If they're the experts on those subjects, then they should have all of of those comments directed their way and I can do something else in peace.
I think we probably would agree on a lot of stuff, and naturally disagree on somethings, and maybe even passionately disagreeing on here over stuff if we let ourselves?
When I first started posting I realized that my communication efforts were frequently misunderstood by other readers. I have actually worked hard at changing my writing style with the hope of improving dialogue and communication accuracy. Disagreements are unfortunate but necessary (ime),. Being "angry," "rude," or "offensive" is something each of us needs to personnally regulate per site rules/guidelines and for the benefit of better communications, not to mention that being kind, friendly, and "nice" is a lot more pleasant way to live, ime. (My spouce is hung over and grumbling in the kitchen as I type, and sadly I know too well the subject of communication and happiness based upon ones own self & general outlook for life.)

For the record; I have no beef with @Crustaceon, your posts, or what has been writen in the thread. I was making a general/generic comment about our MODS post that seemed to be (again) reminding everyone who is reading that the site is only as good as participants make it, and that there are rules of engagement that promote "kind," respectful dialogue, also they encourage folks to not make personal attacks or heated comments. I know that others on here have likely blocked me because I annoy the fish out of them. I wish it wasn't so but I am a known irritant for some folks, (sorry all-) I am working on it. My writing and comments often rubs folks raw and seem to be a huge distraction for them. I'm trying to be less toxic for the good of the site but I know my efforts will not heal all wounds I've inflicted.

This is the state of our sad existence. When you feel passionately about the hobby, try to channel the emotion away from conflict and towards discussion. If it isn't working out, check out of that thread and know that "those-threads" will happen for all of us. Don't leave angry, examine how come your passion went negative (when it happens) and don't let these situations and discussions go too far in the wrong direction because we can control our response and how positive or negative we want to engage in life and discussion along the way.

She's yelling into the phone at someone. The needle Watson.

If this posts offends anyone or makes them angry, then I have failed with what I wrote and beg forgiveness from the offended. I hope it makes sense, How about a GIF:

Excited Happy Birthday GIF
Happy reefing!

I
 
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Crustaceon

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I think we probably would agree on a lot of stuff, and naturally disagree on somethings, and maybe even passionately disagreeing on here over stuff if we let ourselves?
When I first started posting I realized that my communication efforts were frequently misunderstood by other readers. I have actually worked hard at changing my writing style with the hope of improving dialogue and communication accuracy. Disagreements are unfortunate but necessary (ime),. Being "angry," "rude," or "offensive" is something each of us needs to personnally regulate per site rules/guidelines and for the benefit of better communications, not to mention that being kind, friendly, and "nice" is a lot more pleasant way to live, ime. (My spouce is hung over and grumbling in the kitchen as I type, and sadly I know too well the subject of communication and happiness based upon ones own self & general outlook for life.)

For the record; I have no beef with @Crustaceon, your posts, or what has been writen in the thread. I was making a general/generic comment about our MODS post that seemed to be (again) reminding everyone who is reading that the site is only as good as participants make it, and that there are rules of engagement that promote "kind," respectful dialogue, also they encourage folks to not make personal attacks or heated comments. I know that others on here have likely blocked me because I annoy the fish out of them. I wish it wasn't so but I am a known irritant for some folks, (sorry all-) I am working on it. My writing and comments often rubs folks raw and seem to be a huge distraction for them. I'm trying to be less toxic for the good of the site but I know my efforts will not heal all wounds I've inflicted.

This is the state of our sad existence. When you feel passionately about the hobby, try to channel the emotion away from conflict and towards discussion. If it isn't working out, check out of that thread and know that "those-threads" will happen for all of us. Don't leave angry, examine how come your passion went negative (when it happens) and don't let these situations and discussions go too far in the wrong direction because we can control our response and how positive or negative we want to engage in life and discussion along the way.

She's yelling into the phone at someone. The needle Watson.

If this posts offends anyone or makes them angry, then I have failed with what I wrote and beg forgiveness from the offended. I hope it makes sense, How about a GIF:

Excited Happy Birthday GIF
Happy reefing!

I
I think a lot of what really wears is how criticism is meted out. If I’m wrong (which I sometimes am), is it so hard to say “You wrote X, did you mean to say X because of…..?” Why yes, i’m sorry, I got 3 hours of sleep the night before because I found out my two year old cat is dying of FIP. Instead, it’s YOU shoudn’t be allowed to comment because I have a DeGrEe and the molecular blabbity blah blah blah and new reefers need to know blah blah blah. New reefers need to know the basics and it’s cool that people know so much on this stuff, but it really is “high level” stuff that isn’t meant for anyone another than these “specialists” to confirm what they already know and pat each other on the back over. Not one reefer in their first week has ever worried whether or not they have enough mitrosomonas in the rocks. They only wonder when they can plop a few clownfish into the tank. If your way give them what they want, great. If my way gives them the same thing, great. It’s fine if we disagree. That’s how we get creative and constructive dialogue. But people need to keep in mind this isn’t a competition and should try to a stay humble and be respectful of each other.
 

Crustaceon

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I think we probably would agree on a lot of stuff, and naturally disagree on somethings, and maybe even passionately disagreeing on here over stuff if we let ourselves?
When I first started posting I realized that my communication efforts were frequently misunderstood by other readers. I have actually worked hard at changing my writing style with the hope of improving dialogue and communication accuracy. Disagreements are unfortunate but necessary (ime),. Being "angry," "rude," or "offensive" is something each of us needs to personnally regulate per site rules/guidelines and for the benefit of better communications, not to mention that being kind, friendly, and "nice" is a lot more pleasant way to live, ime. (My spouce is hung over and grumbling in the kitchen as I type, and sadly I know too well the subject of communication and happiness based upon ones own self & general outlook for life.)

For the record; I have no beef with @Crustaceon, your posts, or what has been writen in the thread. I was making a general/generic comment about our MODS post that seemed to be (again) reminding everyone who is reading that the site is only as good as participants make it, and that there are rules of engagement that promote "kind," respectful dialogue, also they encourage folks to not make personal attacks or heated comments. I know that others on here have likely blocked me because I annoy the fish out of them. I wish it wasn't so but I am a known irritant for some folks, (sorry all-) I am working on it. My writing and comments often rubs folks raw and seem to be a huge distraction for them. I'm trying to be less toxic for the good of the site but I know my efforts will not heal all wounds I've inflicted.

This is the state of our sad existence. When you feel passionately about the hobby, try to channel the emotion away from conflict and towards discussion. If it isn't working out, check out of that thread and know that "those-threads" will happen for all of us. Don't leave angry, examine how come your passion went negative (when it happens) and don't let these situations and discussions go too far in the wrong direction because we can control our response and how positive or negative we want to engage in life and discussion along the way.

She's yelling into the phone at someone. The needle Watson.

If this posts offends anyone or makes them angry, then I have failed with what I wrote and beg forgiveness from the offended. I hope it makes sense, How about a GIF:

Excited Happy Birthday GIF
Happy reefing!

I
I also want to thank you for sharing your social difficulties. I went to therapy for severe anxiety and depression and still struggle with it on a day to day basis, so I have an idea how hard and frustrating it can be to effectively communicate.
 
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KrisReef

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I also want to thank you for sharing your social difficulties. I went to therapy for severe anxiety and depression and still struggle with it on a day to day basis, so I have an idea how hard and frustrating it can be to effectively communicate.
When I read your discussion/request with the Mods; it hit home. You are not alone in our struggles, thanks for sharing and the encouragement. Go feed the fish, mine have been waiting for me so now Off I go! :)
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Where does this reef stand right now/updates


the whole diatribe debate we conducted last three pages centered around can the tank carry life/is it cycled or will that water burn life added and the animals show it in their behavior/lifespan

as of 10/12 is there any life in the tank so we can see final outcome

one of the best ways to finalize any stuck cycle thread is to add animals and see how they do. That may sound mean, but the reason it's not is because we all here can't find any examples of animals not doing fine during any bottle bac cycle on any day the fish are added. The sum total of any link we can find other than a random 2008 my fish died post, is 100% successful bioload carry on any attempted bottle bac cycle. all of them


so let's see some animals in here / time to test
 
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RaymondNoodles

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Sorry for the lack of updates but I’ve been enjoying my beautiful tank. :) There are currently 6 fish, 2 shrimp and a dozen snails. Lost a small turbo snail yesterday. That was the first casualty. I found the shell upside down picked clean. I'm guessing he got stuck upside down while I was at work and the shrimp (and maybe fish) got to him. Everyone else seems to be doing well.

First I added 2 darwin misbar ocellaris clowns (9/22), about 1” and 1.25”. They paired up immediately and have been inseparable since. Super cute. Also a cleaner shrimp and a fire shrimp.

A week later a tailspot blenny and flame hawkfish. So much character from these two.

Algae took off so I added a dozen snails (3 very large top crowns, 10 turbos and 4 astreas. They have been grazing away.

A week later 2 wrasses - a carpenters and royal. The carpenters was very scared and shy at first, but for the last 3 or 4 days he has been out and about.

I’ve been keeping an eye on ammonia and phosphate and occasionally checking nitrate. Within a day of adding the 2 wrasses, ammonia was around .1. Perhaps a bit too much life in a short period of time. Ammonia has since come down to 0 and everyone seems happy.

I appreciate all the input and experience shared here.

Here's a video I made a couple nights ago
 

brandon429

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The #1 amazing trend that this thread reflects is how all stuck cycle posts carry animals just fine. Its trending for more than two decades and it's trending in every reef tank cycle Ive ever seen.

A failed cycle, as indicated by ammonia and nitrite tests above zero, is supposed to be lethal or at least associated with losses, and it's not. the old rules said nitrite and ammonia must be zero at all times or the cycle is broken.

I'm certain: we need a new set of cycling rules for this hobby :)
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Final addendum

Nobody involved in making or trading or selling bottle bac gets to make the new cycling rules.

We demand separation going forward, or if not, all realtors + mortgage bankers want to be in cahoots from here on out just the same. The s.e.c. will go away, and wall street will audit itself. All tax audits going forward will be honor system if anyone involved in making, selling, trading bottle bacteria in any way gets to be part of the updated cycling rules committee.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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I said that because I'm jaded by proxy for all the folks who in scared reaction bought 1-3 extra bottles of bacteria during their cycle because the first bottle was claimed dead, by those old rules above. Collective totals: $3 million+ in reaction purchases sold by pet stores alone, redundant bacteria sold in fear. Your fish might die if you don't buy fritz or a new bottle of Dr T's, because your nitrite is purple

Fish disease preps: not factored. Trained focus is cycling stalls, because we click buy soon after.

So they buy some, and then some for peace of mind

Guess how many times a web post falsely sold bottle bac to a scared cycler: $$
 
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