not alot of replies to many members' requests for icp test decoding, did we waste our money on icp?

Rick Mathew

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To my simple mind the problem is not really that complicated. Every measurement has some level of error...Our watches have error...our home temperature controllers have error...The gas gage in our cars has error...and on it goes...As @Lasse described in post #98 in this discussion the process of finding the errors in his test kits and testing methods have lead him to adopt a test protocol that requires several measurement to feel somewhat confident in his results....If he chose to he could actually put an error range to his work...Like.... Measured value ± .02, .03 , .04...or what ever his result tell him...

This is what outside testing services need to do...The same thing @Lassie did and publish their results for each of the elements or compounds measured...This would help the receiver of the information to better understand confidence in the measurement and therefore confidence in any decisions they might make...My 2 cents
 

Nano sapiens

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And then there are all shades of reef keepers that are somewhere in the middle between "I want to be on an intimate basis with every last element in my water' to "My system is fine, corals are all colorful and healthy...it's all good".

I agree that ICP can be a useful tool, but IMO one needs to know when it's really appropriate to use so as not to spend money unnecessarily. This is especially true for novice reef keepers who just hear that 'ICP is the latest and greatest thing to succeed in this hobby' and then when they get back the results there is a whole lot of confusion as to what it all means and what, if anything, to do with said results. In such cases, time and effort would have been much better served by researching the core tenents of successful reef setup and reef keeping and putting them into long-term practice to gain experience.

Off the top of my head, I believe that ICP can be useful in these circumstances:

1. Novice reef keepers who have studied, understood and applied reef keeping 'best practices' for an extended period of time (year or more), but still have serious issues with their reef aquariums. An ICP test can highlight any elevated or depleted elements so corrective action can be taken.

2. Intermediate to advanced reef keepers who have serious issues with the aquarium that can't be resolved via typical reef keeping best practices.

3. Intermediate to advanced reef keepers who want to run the reef aquarium with very few or no water changes. ICP can highlight which elements need to be dosed to keep up with usage and which dosed elements need to be increased or decreased.

4. Advanced reef keepers who want to 'fine tune' their system to try and promote enhanced coloration and/or growth.
 

Lasse

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This is especially true for novice reef keepers who just hear that 'ICP is the latest and greatest thing to succeed in this hobby' and then when they get back the results there is a whole lot of confusion as to what it all means and what, if anything, to do with said results. In such cases, time and effort would have been much better served by researching the core tenents of successful reef setup and reef keeping and putting them into long-term practice to gain experience.
My point is that this is also valid for our recommendation to use hobby test kit. And I think - there is spent a lot of more money in that pocket compared with icp testing.

However - if you should have any use of testing and learn something about it - it is the tests when everything is running as it should that will gain you most. If you test mostly during good times - you learn that 500 ppb in Si levels is fine, yes even 20 000 ppb is fine. If I haven´t done these tests when things works well and do a test when things going south - discovering a Si level of 600 ppb - > what will I blame my journey south to?

I´ll try to - every time a question turn up about values from ICP testing - use my long experiences of these tests and show the values that I have had in historical time. My testing lab have a very good feature - you can get a graph of your earlier test results.

In the same way that we need to learn to not panic if someone report 0.3 in PO4 or 0.25 in total ammonia - we need to learn that when someone ask for an odd ICP value not to panic and paint a colourful painting of the purgatory and the cost for the 7 deadly sins of reefkeeping. We have to learn the saying;

Keep calm - and go fishing :D

Sincerely Lasse
 

Nano sapiens

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My point is that this is also valid for our recommendation to use hobby test kit. And I think - there is spent a lot of more money in that pocket compared with icp testing.

I was just making a general statement based on a number of different replies to this topic, so nothing specific about your advice on testing. But since you mention it, certainly, learning how to test properly at home is a valuable skill. Now how much people can spend on hobbyist test kits vs. ICP tests can be quite variable. My point would be that ICP testing has a good value/cost ratio for some, but not for all.

However - if you should have any use of testing and learn something about it - it is the tests when everything is running as it should that will gain you most. If you test mostly during good times - you learn that 500 ppb in Si levels is fine, yes even 20 000 ppb is fine. If I haven´t done these tests when things works well and do a test when things going south - discovering a Si level of 600 ppb - > what will I blame my journey south to?.

Out of curiosity I had an ICP test done when it first became available on my quite healthy aquarium. I found it a useful exercise to see how the various element levels compared with my test kit readings, but I have had no compelling reason to have another one done (although that could change if something really odd were to come up).

I´ll try to - every time a question turn up about values from ICP testing - use my long experiences of these tests and show the values that I have had in historical time. My testing lab have a very good feature - you can get a graph of your earlier test results.

Excellent!

In the same way that we need to learn to not panic if someone report 0.3 in PO4 or 0.25 in total ammonia - we need to learn that when someone ask for an odd ICP value not to panic and paint a colourful painting of the purgatory and the cost for the 7 deadly sins of reefkeeping. We have to learn the saying;

Keep calm - and go fishing :D

Sincerely Lasse

Less panic, more fishing...sounds like a good plan :)
 
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Ehsan@triton

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Thus, I think the "fully understand" part of that sentence is a lofty, and still not attained, goal. :)

Apologies for the use of the word "fully" in this sentence Randy. I agree with you on this point. We may never “fully understand” all aspects of the elements in our aquarium. Maybe the word “fully" should be replaced with “deeper”.
I certainly realize the difficulty, but I also realize that the bioavailability (and potential toxicity) of many trace elements depends strongly on the chemical forms present, both oxidation state and what fraction are bound to what of the multitude of possible organics. ICP cannot give this information.
Folks shouldn't be misled into thinking that 1 ppb copper in an aquarium is the same as 1 ppb copper in a different aquarium or 1 ppb copper in the ocean.
We agree on this point also. Having said this I should add some further context.
The ICP measurement, of in this case Copper (Cu), is still very valuable in the applied or practical way of reef husbandry. In regards to Cu for example, if the ICP measured 20 ppb in an aquarium without any negative effect the Cu “could" be bound to organics. But what if, and who can tell us if, this copper will remain bound and not be freed up in the future at any possible time? With a complex system, like a reef aquarium, consisting of highly fluctuating states of organics, the risk of changing states cannot be ignored. If your aquarium has a low amount of Cu then you can at least be confident that only a low amount of Cu could be free at any particular time. As an aquarist I would prefer to invoke the “Precautionary Principle” in this case.
Neither of us want people to overestimate ICP testing as a tool. For this reason we posted this thread, a few months ago on our forum, and continue to educate people in a variety of ways to make sure that this doesn’t happen:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-an-icp-oes-machine-cannot-test.693037/
 

2Sunny

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My point is that this is also valid for our recommendation to use hobby test kit. . . .

Keep calm - and go fishing :D

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse,

Thank you ever so much for your in depth analysis of the discussion. Your thoughts on the topic are greatly appreciated, but I would like to make a slightly different point from yours with the hope of continuing the open dialogue.


I do agree with you in one area as it is also my opinion that testing ACCURATELY AND PRECISELY for the "difficult" ions such as PO4, Iodine, or Strontium is not possible using home test kits, and so recommending such is likely pointless and results in unnecessary expenditures, but as I said in my previous post, (and again this is personal opinion expressed for purposes of discussion and in no way directed at any one person) it is simply not necessary to test for those ions to be a successful reefer. What is necessary is to check pH, salinity, and Ca+/Alkalinity as these items can and do change quickly in our self contained environments, and more importantly tests for these items ARE accurate enough and cheap enough for the average reefer to use.



As for me, my son and I are headed out Fly Fishing later today so there's that :)

Sincerely,
Joe in NY
 

Lasse

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As for me, my son and I are headed out Fly Fishing later today so there's that :)

P6030113.JPG

:oops::oops::oops::oops::D:D and it is a splitcane !!!!!!! Hörgaards Lillemor!!!!

Sincerely Lasse
 

Lasse

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I do agree with you in one area as it is also my opinion that testing ACCURATELY AND PRECISELY for the "difficult" ions such as PO4, Iodine, or Strontium is not possible using home test kits, and so recommending such is likely pointless and results in unnecessary expenditures, but as I said in my previous post, (and again this is personal opinion expressed for purposes of discussion and in no way directed at any one person) it is simply not necessary to test for those ions to be a successful reefer. What is necessary is to check pH, salinity, and Ca+/Alkalinity as these items can and do change quickly in our self contained environments, and more importantly tests for these items ARE accurate enough and cheap enough for the average reefer to use.
We can´t agree more. There is swedish reefers lurking around here that can confirm that I´m well known for nearly the exact same opinion as you have. However pH with colour hobbytests ........With computers and electronic probes - yes if it is cleaned and calibrated. And salinity make me crazy - total crazy. However - Ca and alkalinity - rather good as long as you accept ±30 ppm Ca and ± 0,5 DKH I use my Triton ICP and N-DOC values for tuning in my own measurements of these compounds. Even salinity can be calculated between the thumb and the index finger with help of different concentration that you get from the ICP test -> https://recifalnews.fr/2017/05/compute-salinity-from-sea-water-macro-elements/

Sincerely Lasse and in Swedish "skit fiske" for your fly fishing trip - use google translate :D Our way of wishing good luck. I´m not jealous - not at all - sitting here in the age of Corona - and it will probably rain dogs and cats and you will freeze your toes away........:)
 
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Lasse

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Or use it - front .......wait....wait - back wait .... wait.....front .... wait ... wait and so on - will calm you down instead of using a carbon horsewhip - frobacfronbac,,,,, :D:D:D

Sincerely Lasse
 

Frag_mad

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I love ICPs. But I also enjoy researching what the minor elements do. Especially running an algae scrubber and learning the importance to them manganese & iron have to them just to name a couple. Downside is living in the UK it can take upto 2 weeks to get results back which is frustrating. I can’t wait for a breakthrough in the industry that means we can do icp level testing at home.
 

Reefahholic

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With all this said, I’m curious as to which ICP companies have gained the most trust from the users here at R2R. Anybody care to chime in and give their opinions of what analysis they prefer to send out right now in 2022 :)

Let’s make it clear…this is just an opinion and what you prefer and we can all have different opinions.
 

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