Not cycling after a fortnight with Dr Tim's

[OneSlyFox]

Hi there reefers. This is my first post!

I set up my first reef aquarium and quarantine tanks 2 weeks ago with 2ppm ammonia (Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride) and bacteria (Dr Tim's One & Only).

The main tank is a 80g/300L second hand tank that I cleaned out with vinegar, rinsed with lots of water. It has 22kg rinsed sand, 24kg bleached then rinsed dry rock, and two new bio blocks in the sump. Using RO/DI water with 0 tds, SG 1.025, pH 8.0, temperature 79F/26C. Skimmer and UV filter off and filter floss removed from cup. No lights. The quarantine tank is 15g/60L with internal filter as the only bio media.

Since then I have been monitoring ammonia and nitrites daily, and occasionally checking pH and nitrates. Unfortunately nothing seems to be progressing with my cycle on either tank - each day my ammonia remains at 2ppm, nitrites 0, nitrates 0 (API / Red Sea). Over the last 3 days I have been adding Seachem Stability, thinking that Dr Tim's bacteria were possibly dead on arrival.

I have been reading the various cycling threads and it sounds like this is abnormal, in that I haven't got any response at all from Dr Tim's bacteria, nor the Stability so far. By response I refer to a conversion of ammonia into nitrites or nitrates. Am I missing something, or do you think this is the expected time course for cycling even though I have been using bacterial additives? Do you think I have done something wrong, or should I just wait?

 

[Mr Fishface]

This may seem like a silly question but how much did you rinse the bleached rock? Did you just rinse it off, did you soak it once for a few hours, soak for several days with water changes? Reason I ask is because I wonder if it was possible that the bleach didn't come out of the rock enough and the little bit left may have killed any bacteria.

Otherwise... I don't think you are doing anything wrong. You could try to get another bottle of bacteria to try again, seems odd that the bottle you added haven't made any changes so far. These results I would expect from someone who didn't add any bacteria honestly. Other than trying another bottle you could just keep waiting. If you are a couple weeks in it should start to convert to nitrite in another couple weeks. My personal experience has been closer to 3 months to fully cycle with no bacteria added though. Seems like other users have a shorter time than I always have so take my cycle time with a grain of salt lol.

 

[MohrReefs]

The only thing jumping out at me here is the bleach as well. I had my tank cycled in 3 days with two clowns and a bottle of Dr Tim's. You did everything right it seems but it just looks like the one factor here is the bleach, it's the only out of the norm factor.

 

[Silent]

Dr. Tim's wasn't working for me so I added microbactor7 and it finished cycling a few days later.

 

[lapin]

Did you let the rock dry after bleaching and rinsing?
How did you rinse out the bleach from deep inside the rock?

 

[OneSlyFox]

The bleach was the thing making me nervous too. I do have some Prime, but haven’t used that because of Dr Tim’s instructions about not confusing cycling with additives. After the bleach, I rinsed the rock off and soaked in water for an hour, then let them dry. So I don’t think it should be an issue. I also have the two bio bricks in the sump that I put Dr Tim’s straight onto and I’ve also been adding Stability to as well. It’s as if Dr Tim’s doesn’t survive the long trip to Australia, and Stability is similarly just a bottle of water. Unfortunately we don’t have Fritz here.

 

[MohrReefs]

The bleach was the thing making me nervous too. I do have some Prime, but haven’t used that because of Dr Tim’s instructions about not confusing cycling with additives. After the bleach, I rinsed the rock off and soaked in water for an hour, then let them dry. So I don’t think it should be an issue. I also have the two bio bricks in the sump that I put Dr Tim’s straight onto and I’ve also been adding Stability to as well. It’s as if Dr Tim’s doesn’t survive the long trip to Australia, and Stability is similarly just a bottle of water. Unfortunately we don’t have Fritz here.

Possible it could've been a bad bottle. But if it's still not working with a different bottle I'd wager it's the rock.

 

[OneSlyFox]

Thanks for your suggestions. Still ammonia 2ppm and nitrites 0ppm today. I decided to add high dose Prime to both tanks today to neutralise any residual chlorine from bleach, so we will see how that goes as I continue to dose Stability. Do you have any other suggestions as to what I should do? Given the quantity of rock and the way I've cemented (Aquaforest) it together, it's not feasible to remove the rock from the tank unfortunately.

 

[lapin]

You could do a water change and start over.
As i understand it:
If you have 2 tanks not connected in any way. Bleach was used on only the rock. The QT tank has no rock and is bleach free, with a filter and sponge or bio media. You dosed ammonia to 2ppm in both tank. You added bacteria in a bottle to both tanks.
For the QT tank to not to cycle quickly it is lack of surface area for bacteria to grow and lack of bacteria. I would guess the bacteria in a bottle was dead. The cycle will happen, it will take a long time.
The main tank with rock, If the same bottle was used then lack of bacteria along with some bleach in the rock is most likely your issue. You added ammonia and did not die from the fumes of a bleach ammonia mix. So very little bleach was left. However the result of mixing the 2 might be the issue as it killed everything. Prime was added which might help. Since prime binds ammonia for 48 hours I would not add any more ammonia for 4 days unless you have changed out the water and tested to see if its needed.
You might be able to get a piece of live rock at an LFS to start your cycle if live bacteria is not avail. If not then it might take a while for natural cycling to happen.

 

[lapin]

Oh and Howdy, Welcome, Gday and all that

 

[brandon429]

I’ve been thinking about this post for two days before posting I’ll tell you my conclusion


ill bet the chips it’s not stalled, no matter how you slice with or internally trust an api kit, I bet it can pass a basic proofing where api is not used


change nearly all the water, add fish, they live. Proof of cycle.


this isn’t a guess, anymore than basing what bac do on api despite the literally tens of thousands of search returns for stuck 2, 4, and 8 ppm ammonia threads. I can’t count the number of those we’ve collected and finalized as not stuck. Living fish proof a cycle, they’ll die in 48 hours in an uncycled tank


again I want to restate, we already collect api examples claimed stuck at 2, 4, and 8 ppm and some are linked in the microbiology of cycling thread which has claimed for four years that no cycle stalls. Those threads were found to be false reads.


additionally
when has there not been a stuck cycle post in reefing where all the community lists ways it’s stalled, inherent agreement with api, and I’m saying it’s not stalled. I say we work a real proofing test just to break my streak then y’all rub it in deep I’ll stay to take the beating



I bet that reef is cycled. #3225

make up a brute and a half of new water


change out this mixed wastewater to new, this leaves suspected bac on surfaces

add some fish since we are working a bio proof here


in three days we have the answer, 1000% verified. Dead fish, uncycled, I’ll update the thread

living fish, your bac was good the whole time and what your tank is doing has happened twenty thousand times on google with each entrant absolutely as sure it was stalled. We have seen api hold at 2 ppm in full running reefs, the stated measure first post means nothing without comparison proofing.

*post pics of your bottle of dr Tim’s used and the reef, let’s see expiry date listed on bottle pic just to make sure


cycle troubleshooting requires pics to discern any unstated variables, sometimes pics show cyano spotting in the tank which proofs a cycle done and then other times we see people using freshwater kits accidentally, printed on the color charts, or we see them not filling the vial correctly, so many api confounds. That you tested another set of water doesnt matter (prime isn’t input across samples + ammonia in those samples, not testing the same thing as your tank at all)

we account for the reading with the full water change + fish proofing test. If you’re dedicated on fallow which means no fish proofing, then find someone in your city to run a seneye reading. This claim of a stalled cycle cannot be angled back to sole api readings as final proof.

if this tank can’t do a fish in test, and can’t attain a seneye reading, then the stall is 100% not confirmed because no aspect of this post differs from all stalled cycle threads we’ve already diagnosed as false stalls.

creative: remove some rocks from large tank

do proofing in a paint bucket, that will move proof time to 24 hours. Can use a few crabs and snails since dilution is down

 

[MohrReefs]

Just start over, new rock, new water new bacteria bottle. No need to risk a lil fishys life this way.

 

[OneSlyFox]

@lapin
G'day / Bonjour! Thankyou again for your help. I am indeed still alive and kicking - no I didn't die from any fumes of a bleach-ammonia mix! I am doing a fishless cycle so don't plan on adding any more ammonia unless it gets gobbled up by something else, hopefully bacteria. I will consider changing out the water, although I'm running low on salt after setup. Somehow I went through most of 20kg. Might give it a little bit longer after Prime treatment but I do understand what you're saying and your thoughts are quite logical.

@brandon429
I appreciate your lengthy consideration. However, unlike your other threads that I have read where it clearly seems as though the cycle has commenced but supposedly 'stalled' on nitrites, I don't think my cycle has actually 'started'. Moreover, my ammonia level is definitely unsafe for fish without continuing Prime dosing - this is based on multiple testing methods (API, Red Sea and Ammonia Alert). Admittedly some of the wording of your post is a little hard to follow.

As per your request, I have attached pictures below, including one of my bottle of Dr Tim's (unfortunately I discarded the other bottle). You will note there is only a LOT number, and no expiry date. I asked the sole Australian distributor about this last week, and their advice was that the bacteria never expire. I told them that in fact the Dr Tim's website says they're good for 6 months, and they haven't yet responded further.

There is definitely no cyano spotting or other signs of growth in my tanks.

I am indeed set upon fishless cycling. I don't know of anyone around here (Canberra, the capital of Australia, but it's actually a regional backwater) that owns a Seneye, although I don't feel that this will add much in my case given the multimodal testing I've performed so far.

@MohrReefs
Thankyou again and I think you're absolutely right about lil fishy lives. Starting over sounds incredibly costly (my rocks were $240), and I don't actually think I've done anything particularly wrong in that I doubt there could possibly be much bleach left after my process. Obviously though I will have to consider this if nothing changes from here.

Overall, based on your collective advice, I think I will give it another week with Seachem Stability bacteria after having dosed with Prime to neutralise any rogue bleach, otherwise I'll do a total water change and remove all filters and possibly also rock if I can do this without breaking it all. In other news I'm awaiting the arrival of some snazzy Radion XR15 Blues to light the tank if and when I am able to cycle it.

Pictures:

Figure 1 - API testing for Display Tank

Figures 2 & 3 - Red Sea testing for Quarantine Tank (same result for Display Tank)

Figure 4 - Display Tank - feel free to critique my ugly cementing job on the rock on the left. My sand has now formed dunes.

Figure 5 - Sump - the weir drain goes down the back left, where there is a bit of filter material to lessen the noise from the Durso drain; flow then goes up and over to where my filter cup is, down past the bio bricks etc. Skimmer and UV filters are off.

Figure 6 - Quarantine Tank - two pieces of filter material are inside the in-tank filter on the left, also another within the pump on the right, though this pump is a bit too powerful so it's actually off. Interestingly, after Prime yesterday the free ammonia being read by the Ammonia Alert has perhaps come down to Alert from Alarm. I'd have thought it would be yellow though, so I added a bit more Prime today.

Figure 7 - One & Only - note no expiry date anywhere

Figure 8 - One & Only - LOT number but no expiry date

 

[waterbox100.3aus]

@lapin
G'day / Bonjour! Thankyou again for your help. I am indeed still alive and kicking - no I didn't die from any fumes of a bleach-ammonia mix! I am doing a fishless cycle so don't plan on adding any more ammonia unless it gets gobbled up by something else, hopefully bacteria. I will consider changing out the water, although I'm running low on salt after setup. Somehow I went through most of 20kg. Might give it a little bit longer after Prime treatment but I do understand what you're saying and your thoughts are quite logical.

@brandon429
I appreciate your lengthy consideration. However, unlike your other threads that I have read where it clearly seems as though the cycle has commenced but supposedly 'stalled' on nitrites, I don't think my cycle has actually 'started'. Moreover, my ammonia level is definitely unsafe for fish without continuing Prime dosing - this is based on multiple testing methods (API, Red Sea and Ammonia Alert). Admittedly some of the wording of your post is a little hard to follow.

As per your request, I have attached pictures below, including one of my bottle of Dr Tim's (unfortunately I discarded the other bottle). You will note there is only a LOT number, and no expiry date. I asked the sole Australian distributor about this last week, and their advice was that the bacteria never expire. I told them that in fact the Dr Tim's website says they're good for 6 months, and they haven't yet responded further.

There is definitely no cyano spotting or other signs of growth in my tanks.

I am indeed set upon fishless cycling. I don't know of anyone around here (Canberra, the capital of Australia, but it's actually a regional backwater) that owns a Seneye, although I don't feel that this will add much in my case given the multimodal testing I've performed so far.

@MohrReefs
Thankyou again and I think you're absolutely right about lil fishy lives. Starting over sounds incredibly costly (my rocks were $240), and I don't actually think I've done anything particularly wrong in that I doubt there could possibly be much bleach left after my process. Obviously though I will have to consider this if nothing changes from here.

Overall, based on your collective advice, I think I will give it another week with Seachem Stability bacteria after having dosed with Prime to neutralise any rogue bleach, otherwise I'll do a total water change and remove all filters and possibly also rock if I can do this without breaking it all. In other news I'm awaiting the arrival of some snazzy Radion XR15 Blues to light the tank if and when I am able to cycle it.

Pictures:

Figure 1 - API testing for Display Tank

Figures 2 & 3 - Red Sea testing for Quarantine Tank (same result for Display Tank)

Figure 4 - Display Tank - feel free to critique my ugly cementing job on the rock on the left. My sand has now formed dunes.

Figure 5 - Sump - the weir drain goes down the back left, where there is a bit of filter material to lessen the noise from the Durso drain; flow then goes up and over to where my filter cup is, down past the bio bricks etc. Skimmer and UV filters are off.

Figure 6 - Quarantine Tank - two pieces of filter material are inside the in-tank filter on the left, also another within the pump on the right, though this pump is a bit too powerful so it's actually off. Interestingly, after Prime yesterday the free ammonia being read by the Ammonia Alert has perhaps come down to Alert from Alarm. I'd have thought it would be yellow though, so I added a bit more Prime today.

Figure 7 - One & Only - note no expiry date anywhere

Figure 8 - One & Only - LOT number but no expiry date

Hi mate, I’m in the exact Same boat, dosed
Dr Tim’s Nothing ammonia is still stuck at 2ppm 10 days in.

now I started stability, still nothing changing. What was your end result ?

 

[Softhammer]

Search on here for a research article about dr Tim’s. One of the scientific types did a very detailed analysis of the products. I’ll bet you can guess how it turned out...

 

[OneSlyFox]

Hi mate, I’m in the exact Same boat, dosed
Dr Tim’s Nothing ammonia is still stuck at 2ppm 10 days in.

now I started stability, still nothing changing. What was your end result ?

Hi waterbox,

After about 5 days of dosing Stability, I started noticing my ammonia decreasing, then by the end of March I started getting nitrites. It took a much longer time for these nitrites to reduce in the display tank - another month (end of April). In the fish quarantine tank it took even longer - until at least mid May.

Overall though the cycles seemed to take 2 - 2.5 months, even with the use of Dr Tim's and Seachem Stability. I wasn't really convinced that either product works amazingly well.

Believe it or not I still don't have anything in the display tank! I have 4 fish in quarantine, and they're being treated with copper after coming out with ich during observation. I set up a third tank (!!) for coral quarantine. This time I used Aquaforest Bio S with Dr Tim's Ammonia on May 10, and the cycle was complete in 2 weeks, even after re-dosing of ammonia to ensure processing within 24 hours.

I have quite a few (too many) corals now in quarantine for over a month - the zoanthids are flourishing, but my hammers/torches rapidly went from really happy to really unhappy within the space of a few days for unclear reasons. Perhaps it was because my phosphate level was sky high (1ppm!) when it was the only key parameter I still hadn't purchased a test kit for. Alas I now understand that phosphates can be sky high even when the nitrates were just 2ppm due to frequent water changes. Or perhaps it may have been because I corrected the alkalinity too rapidly when I started dosing. I noticed they were consuming a lot between water changes - dKH went down to 6, and I corrected to 8.2 with a single dose because I slightly miscalculated. It was a week and a bit later that the hammers then torches receded rapidly. Now my water is now perfect per all testing parameters, so I'm hoping the corals I damaged start improving again. Very sensitive little things...

 

[waterbox100.3aus]

Thanks for the reply, I’m still scratching my head. Maybe I’m impatient .. still no change in ammonia, I introduced gravel from an established tank and using aqua Forrest pro bio s bacteria.

I would have expected some change in ammonia by now still siting at 2ppm.

it’s only been 2 weeks though ..

 

[Funston07]

Thanks for the reply, I’m still scratching my head. Maybe I’m impatient .. still no change in ammonia, I introduced gravel from an established tank and using aqua Forrest pro bio s bacteria.

I would have expected some change in ammonia by now still siting at 2ppm.

it’s only been 2 weeks though ..

If you can get Instant Ocean Bio-Spira I would try that. Im not sure about availability in Australia but I just set up a 65gal tank about 10 days ago and my ammonia already dropped to .25ppm, nitrite 0.1ppm, and nitrate 10ppm. Seemed like it worked really well, I honestly thought I was reading the test wrong. I didn't expect it to work that fast. They make 2 different size bottles though, make sure you get the right one for your tank.

 

[92Miata]

If you can get Instant Ocean Bio-Spira I would try that. Im not sure about availability in Australia but I just set up a 65gal tank about 10 days ago and my ammonia already dropped to .25ppm, nitrite 0.1ppm, and nitrate 10ppm. Seemed like it worked really well, I honestly thought I was reading the test wrong. I didn't expect it to work that fast. They make 2 different size bottles though, make sure you get the right one for your tank.

Seconding - I had fish in the tank in less than a week with bio-spira.

I seem to see a lot of these threads with Dr. Tims.

 

[LeftyReefer]

That is the exact opposite of how my cycling is currently going. My new tank is cycling/progressing fast. Faster than I expected.

I think your bottle of bacteria was dead. Or the bleach was an issue.

I started cycling my tank on Monday of this week (7/6) and was already getting nitrites the following day and nitrates 2-3 days later. I had to redose ammonia 2 days into the cycle. At only 4 days in, my tank processed 2ppm ammonia down to .25ppm in 24 hours and my nitrates are now testing over 20ppm. I used 4 oz of Turbo Start 900 and 4 oz of Bio-Spira to seed the tank, and dosed with ammonia chloride.

Here is my progression
7/6 seeded tank with 1ppm ammonia and bottled bacteria
7/7 tested, ammonia dropped .5ppm Nitrites showing up.
7/8 tesetd, ammonia less than .25ppm. Nitrites 2ppm. Nitrates 10ppm. Redosed ammonia to 2ppm, added more bacteria
7/9 tested, ammonia .25ppm, Nitrites 2ppm. Nitrates 20ppm.

I will test again this evening and will probably redose ammonia up to 2ppm again.... or maybe I go even higher like 3ppm and see how long it takes the tank to process that down.