Not gonna lie looks like snake oil

livinlifeinBKK

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I'm a microbiologist - and a hobbyist. I have no problem with his 'methods' or products per se. Disagreeing with someone is not necessarily a personal attack. I would suggest (and many would disagree) that adding any bacterial product (except with an initial cycle) - is likely to have little effect in increasing diversity long-term - and I question whether increasing diversity alone should even be a goal?
I'd actually agree with your one statement that once a tank is established there's not much you can do without adding a significant amount of biodiversity meaning entire rocks colonized with wild bacteria to increase biodiversity since the already present bacteria have such a strong foothold in the form of biofilms which offer a certain degree of protection from competing foreign bacteria.
 

areefer01

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I'm a microbiologist - and a hobbyist. I have no problem with his 'methods' or products per se. Disagreeing with someone is not necessarily a personal attack. I would suggest (and many would disagree) that adding any bacterial product (except with an initial cycle) - is likely to have little effect in increasing diversity long-term - and I question whether increasing diversity alone should even be a goal?

Snake oil or calling out that they don't do it correctly or assuming they don't have a piece of equipment without factual information to back it up is not a disagreement. Disagreements and conversations are perfectly normal.

This isn't a vibrant moment as it was put a few posts back.
 

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I used TB rock and garf in the past. You get a lot of "stuff" with those.

This time, I used dry everything, and seeded this with bottled bacteria (e.g. algaebarn substrate sauce and other strains). I also added copepods early. Almost no uglies.
When did you add the copepods? I am using the same cycle kit for my 240 right now and so far all is going well. Thanks.
 

livinlifeinBKK

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I always stand by just using live ocean rock since I've never experienced "the uglies" in my tanks...I know for really large tanks that that isn't always an option but using as much real live rock as you can is something I'd expect to reduce that phase at the least
 
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Money would be better spent on just adding a few chunks of live ocean rock to the display imo... wouldn't that host even more bacterial species to outcompete the cyano?
And that’s really what i wanted but for $180 for 8lbs of rock is a hard buy to explain to my wife. Non the less a new skimmer for $400. See where im getting to?

Im glad most and most on this forum for that matter has plenty of disposable income but i do not. This hobby is the biggest money of any hobby I’ve ever been apart of. Literally the same as throwing miney in the trash sometimes :squinting-face-with-tongue:
This is no personal attack on you per say.
 
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dcsorrell

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Are you sure? Did you get DNA sequencing done?
No, but he sure looks like a Doberman, barks like a Doberman and acts like a Doberman. All his vets (he sees a couple specialists) are sure he's a Doberman. Breeders we've encountered didn't even ask whether he's purebred. He's a typical velcro Doberman. Doesn't sing like a hound. Has no opinion of sirens. No hound jowls, ears are only half as long as a coonhound. Tail is cropped.
20190404_123326_HDR.jpg
Here's another pic:
 

areefer01

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And that’s really what i wanted but for $180 for 8lbs of rock is a hard buy to explain to my wife. Non the less a new skimmer for $400. See where im getting to?

Im glad most and most on this forum for that matter has plenty of disposable income but i do not. This hobby is the biggest money of any hobby I’ve ever been apart of. Literally the same as throwing miney in the trash sometimes :squinting-face-with-tongue:
This is no personal attack on you per say.

If you wanted a source of live rubble that is guaranteed to be pest free of pathogens or parasites then you got your moneys worth. It really is as simple as that.
 
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doubleshot00

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If you wanted a source of live rubble that is guaranteed to be pest free of pathogens or parasites then you got your moneys worth. It really is as simple as that.
Why i did it. Idk why TB Saltwater shipping is so expensive. Like it doesn’t have to be overnighted and they could figure out a way to use usps flat rate but I don’t think thats there clientele. They want volume. I mean there is another company on here that has a 20lb limit and its $25 a lb. o_O
 

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Why i did it. Idk why TB Saltwater shipping is so expensive. Like it doesn’t have to be overnighted and they could figure out a way to use usps flat rate but I don’t think thats there clientele. They want volume. I mean there is another company on here that has a 20lb limit and its $25 a lb. o_O

Few reasons why it is expensive with air freight being number one. It is collected, packaged, and shipped overnight to the nearest airfreight terminal for pickup all within 24 hours. Fully submerged underwater. Water adds weight which drives up cost but yields the best possible return on investment with keeping it alive. You open the box you know it is real. Smells just like being on a beach. I've personally not used TBS but I have used KP aquatics which is shipped similar.

Placed order, received call to ask a few questions, set date, and they collected, boxed, and shipped from their location on the East coast to my door in under 24 hours. Crazy. But yet 25 lbs of rock was someone expensive. No doubt. No way I could do 170 lbs of that stuff which is why I went with dry for the foundation.
 

MnFish1

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Now, that's a problem
I sent multiple samples - and in fact the ones I sent were:

1. Just the fixative (no sample) - there was no bacteria found
2. Saliva - the answer was - bacteria not typical of a reef tank
3. 2 identical samples taken from the same place (as recommended in the instructions) at the same time - They both came back identical - and were 'not very diverse'
4. the same sample as #3 - except during the dark - it came back identical to #2
5. A sample from the sump and skimmer - came back totally different.
6. A sample from multiple areas of live rock - which came back as extremely diverse.

So - to me the results were extremely accurate. Control samples were 'correct' and replicate samples using the instructions were identical including at different times. This suggests to me that the results are correct. However, when one is concerned about overall tank 'biodiversity' - I do not know if it's proper to sample the areas recommended. It lends to consistency between tanks - but as shown by my results - in which some areas of the tank were in the top 5 percent of bacterial diversity and the samples using the instructions were not very diverse at all. To me the conclusion is my tank has great biodiversity - but perhaps not in the areas as in the instructions.

This has lead me to question the iimportance of bacterial diversity in the first place. Especially when one is taking bacteria let's say from a shore in Florida - and all of your corals and fish, etc come from Indonesia - or a sterile breeding tank - or a frag tank.

But - relating it to the current thread - It would be interesting to know how they are determining the bacterial content - it seems that depending on what area of a batch is sampled - the results could be quite difference.
 

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I sent multiple samples - and in fact the ones I sent were:

1. Just the fixative (no sample) - there was no bacteria found
2. Saliva - the answer was - bacteria not typical of a reef tank
3. 2 identical samples taken from the same place (as recommended in the instructions) at the same time - They both came back identical - and were 'not very diverse'
4. the same sample as #3 - except during the dark - it came back identical to #2
5. A sample from the sump and skimmer - came back totally different.
6. A sample from multiple areas of live rock - which came back as extremely diverse.

So - to me the results were extremely accurate. Control samples were 'correct' and replicate samples using the instructions were identical including at different times. This suggests to me that the results are correct. However, when one is concerned about overall tank 'biodiversity' - I do not know if it's proper to sample the areas recommended. It lends to consistency between tanks - but as shown by my results - in which some areas of the tank were in the top 5 percent of bacterial diversity and the samples using the instructions were not very diverse at all. To me the conclusion is my tank has great biodiversity - but perhaps not in the areas as in the instructions.

This has lead me to question the iimportance of bacterial diversity in the first place. Especially when one is taking bacteria let's say from a shore in Florida - and all of your corals and fish, etc come from Indonesia - or a sterile breeding tank - or a frag tank.

But - relating it to the current thread - It would be interesting to know how they are determining the bacterial content - it seems that depending on what area of a batch is sampled - the results could be quite difference.


That's the opposite from what @GlassMunky described as his/her experience - What gives?
 

MnFish1

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That's the opposite from what @GlassMunky described as his/her experience - What gives?
I don't know. I'm giving my experience. I did it on purpose - so that I would be able to tell how rigorous the results would be. BTW - Aquabiomics had no clue where the specimens came from when he tested them - so there was no way for them to 'fudge' the results.

Perhaps Glassmunky did not collect his samples exactly the same - the method I used ensured that both of the identical samples were collected exactly the same way.
 

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This has lead me to question the importance of bacterial diversity in the first place. Especially when one is taking bacteria let's say from a shore in Florida - and all of your corals and fish, etc come from Indonesia - or a sterile breeding tank - or a frag tank.
I think that microbial diversity within a particular environment might always be limited. It just makes sense that certain strains will outcompete others. There has been a lot of discussion about bacteria in the corals and the impact that has on the environment's diversity & vice versa. I gotta fess up that I don't understand all the details... coral holobiont and biomes and that stuff... but I think that the coral might be a different environment than say, the substrate around it so different microbes could exist without ever competing.
 

MnFish1

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I think that microbial diversity within a particular environment might always be limited. It just makes sense that certain strains will outcompete others. There has been a lot of discussion about bacteria in the corals and the impact that has on the environment's diversity & vice versa. I gotta fess up that I don't understand all the details... coral holobiont and biomes and that stuff... but I think that the coral might be a different environment than say, the substrate around it so different microbes could exist without ever competing.
Agreed - and - the biome - tends to stick with the coral. i.e. the biome when it was collected - remains with it in your tank

I.e. the 'macro-biome' and the microbiome
 

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I don't know. I'm giving my experience. I did it on purpose - so that I would be able to tell how rigorous the results would be. BTW - Aquabiomics had no clue where the specimens came from when he tested them - so there was no way for them to 'fudge' the results.

Perhaps Glassmunky did not collect his samples exactly the same - the method I used ensured that both of the identical samples were collected exactly the same way.


Must have been pretty penny to run all these tests.
 

A worm with high fashion and practical utility: Have you ever kept feather dusters in your reef aquarium?

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