Nutrients bottomed out and cyano issue!

[AVVITT]

That’s strange, NP bacto balance contains phosphorus and nitrogen to avoid nutrients going to zero, how it works is replacing inorganic nutrient by organic nutrients that are preferred by coral and other organisms, if your phosphates are bottoming out you may have another source of N-Doc in your tank unless if you are aggressively removing phosphates wile using NP bacto balance normally the bacteria that the product encourages to grow is enough to keep phosphates at a desired level and I’m most cases phosphates absorbing media are not required.

That's what I thought about bacto balance?! But it was suggested that I should stop dosing it?

Maybe the cyano is consuming the nutrients?

That was my first thought because hen a test wouldn't show them up. I do have a lot if corals which all seem to be doing well so growth is going to equal consumption of lots of things.
I guess the best way to tell is to watch how the corals react. If they all look happy and healthy I guess I need not worry and just concentrate on the cyano/Dino removal instead of worrying about low nutrients

 

[sixty_reefer]

That's what I thought about bacto balance?! But it was suggested that I should stop dosing it?

the suggestion is right, now that you have a bloom You want to avoid any carbon to be added to the tank until they back in check, anything containing carbon will fuel them even further also, they get even worse if anything containing glucose is added to the system.
if I was in your place I would increase phosphates to allow the heterotrophic bacteria to dominate the tank again, they stopped multiplying once the phosphates bottom out, I would also increase nitrates or add artificial nitrogen This will encourage the bacteria to multiply and reduce the amount of organic carbon that may be in the system fuelling the Cyanobacteria due the phosphates bottoming out or a rapid decrease in nutrients. Don’t worry about nitrogen added to the system Cyanobacteria utilises atmospheric nitrogen according to studies

 

[AVVITT]

So this is a picture of it on my sand bed. It's definitely photosynthetic because I did a lights out the other day and it disappeared by half

 

[sixty_reefer]

So this is a picture of it on my sand bed. It's definitely photosynthetic because I did a lights out the other day and it disappeared by half

Definitely Cyanobacteria

 

[Crustaceon]

I’ve not seen many clear reports of low nutrients encouraging pests except Dino’s, and that’s likely from reduced competition by something

I’ve not seen many clear reports of low nutrients encouraging pests except Dino’s, and that’s likely from reduced competition by something else.

It’s more of a question of what else struggles at lower nutrient levels that allows something like cyano to thrive. We see it bloom frequently at high nutrient levels simply due to the over abundance of N&P. I’ve always assumed this was also the case at low nutrients where less hardy microbial life quickly starves and either creates newly available habitat for cyano, or releases a food source for it. Cyano tends to exist in our tanks no matter what we do, detectable or not. It seems like it’s just opportunistic if the right conditions present themselves. I’d be curious to see more official laboratory testing on the subject and if those parameters could be determined.

 

[AVVITT]

It’s more of a question of what else struggles at lower nutrient levels that allows someone like cyano thrive. We see it bloom frequently at high nutrient levels simply due to the abundance of N&P. I’ve always assumed this was also the case at low nutrients where less hardy microbial life starves and either creates newly available habitat for cyano, or releases a food source for it. Cyano tends to exist in our tanks no matter what we do, detectable or not. It seems like it’s just opportunistic if the right conditions present themselves. I’d be curious to see more official laboratory testing on the subject and if those parameters could be determined.

It certainly is a hobby we are all still learning at. Wether me as a 19 month reefer or someone who's been going for 30 years, it seems we are always surprised or challenged by something.

My main worry is that cyano will out compete other livestock for nutrients and it looks unsightly.
I tested again tonight after skimmer off for 24 hours, heavy feeding and no bacto balance (though I am still running bacto pellets in a fluidised bed) and my phos is now at 0.003 so there is just a slightly detectable amount that is free in the water column. Bearing in mind I have 32 colonies of coral and around 10 of those have been added in the last 8 weeks, maybe there is a larger uptake of nutrients and with only 9 small to medium sized fish and lots of cuc, I'm guessing my overall nutrient balance may have tipped so any N and P that is available is being utilised instantly, hence my low readings.

If I look at my corals, they look as good as they did yesterday, last week and a few weeks ago so even though I had less corals and more detectable nutrient a while back, perhaps I'm at the point where whatever nutrients are being produced are quickly swallowed up by cuc and coral?

 

[sixty_reefer]

It’s more of a question of what else struggles at lower nutrient levels that allows something like cyano to thrive. We see it bloom frequently at high nutrient levels simply due to the over abundance of N&P. I’ve always assumed this was also the case at low nutrients where less hardy microbial life quickly starves and either creates newly available habitat for cyano, or releases a food source for it. Cyano tends to exist in our tanks no matter what we do, detectable or not. It seems like it’s just opportunistic if the right conditions present themselves. I’d be curious to see more official laboratory testing on the subject and if those parameters could be determined.

I am from a idea that Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates need organic carbon to bloom, not absolutely sure yet although after nitrates or phosphates bottom out it seems that heterotrophic bacteria won’t be able to assimilate Carbon as there’s no phosphates or Nitrates. This will a low for carbon to become more available, other nutrients that will also be available will be organic nutrients as nitrogen and phosphorus that some of this evasive species could use as a source of energy in the absence of inorganic nutrient.
Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates are also observed in high nutrients conditions, most times observed during carbon dosing, the reason they may bloom in this condition may be also due the rapid decrease in inorganic nutrients that will allow carbon and organic nutrients to be more available momentarily, many will observe Cyanobacteria form in low nutrient conditions after dosing amino acids, this contains carbohydrates that could be a source of glucose, I’ve also seen them bloom after some die of in macro algaes that again will be a source of carbon.
from my point of view they seem to bloom wend organic carbon and organic nutrients become more available in our systems.

 

[Crustaceon]

It certainly is a hobby we are all still learning at. Wether me as a 19 month reefer or someone who's been going for 30 years, it seems we are always surprised or challenged by something.

My main worry is that cyano will out compete other livestock for nutrients and it looks unsightly.
I tested again tonight after skimmer off for 24 hours, heavy feeding and no bacto balance (though I am still running bacto pellets in a fluidised bed) and my phos is now at 0.003 so there is just a slightly detectable amount that is free in the water column. Bearing in mind I have 32 colonies of coral and around 10 of those have been added in the last 8 weeks, maybe there is a larger uptake of nutrients and with only 9 small to medium sized fish and lots of cuc, I'm guessing my overall nutrient balance may have tipped so any N and P that is available is being utilised instantly, hence my low readings.

If I look at my corals, they look as good as they did yesterday, last week and a few weeks ago so even though I had less corals and more detectable nutrient a while back, perhaps I'm at the point where whatever nutrients are being produced are quickly swallowed up by cuc and coral?

Tanks can do weird things from time to time, including going through ugly phases related to nutrients. Thankfully, those nutrient levels will often balance themselves out and the tank will bounce back in appearance seemingly on its own. I’ve never been a fan of “dosing to correct” when it comes to nutrients, instead opting to just feed more or less and letting the full process within the tank end in a natural balancing of nutrients. Above all, it’s better to do nothing than to make a major change. This is going to be a process that will likely take weeks to come to fruition. Make sure your fish are always fat and happy. This is absolutely beneficial for the tank’s biological filtration so long as the fish are actually eating the food and not leaving it on the bottom to rot. You can also dose a recommended amount of beneficial bacteria daily although it’s up in the air whether or not that’s actually beneficial.

 

[Crustaceon]

I am from a idea that Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates need organic carbon to bloom, not absolutely sure yet although after nitrates or phosphates bottom out it seems that heterotrophic bacteria won’t be able to assimilate Carbon as there’s no phosphates or Nitrates. This will a low for carbon to become more available, other nutrients that will also be available will be organic nutrients as nitrogen and phosphorus that some of this evasive species could use as a source of energy in the absence of inorganic nutrient.
Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates are also observed in high nutrients conditions, most times observed during carbon dosing, the reason they may bloom in this condition may be also due the rapid decrease in inorganic nutrients that will allow carbon and organic nutrients to be more available momentarily, many will observe Cyanobacteria form in low nutrient conditions after dosing amino acids, this contains carbohydrates that could be a source of glucose, I’ve also seen them bloom after some die of in macro algaes that again will be a source of carbon.
from my point of view they seem to bloom wend organic carbon and organic nutrients become more available in our systems.

I’ve theorized like you mention, that organic carbon dosing can cause nutrients to rapidly decrease to a point where critters like dinos have acceptable living conditions while other microbes in the system which take up the space dinos need to thrive, cannot. I’m not sure what the tipping point is in general, but it’s pretty common to hear of dino outbreaks after bottoming out nutrients. I went through it myself recently while carbon dosing and pegging nitrates and phosphates over the course of a week (faulty dosing pump head) . I’ve also ran tanks long-term (around 6 months) at NSW levels using frequent changes of scripps pier water (a perk of being in San Diego) and not getting dinos as a result. Maybe the key is avoiding swinging nutrients too fast and staying within a safe range.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It’s more of a question of what else struggles at lower nutrient levels that allows something like cyano to thrive. We see it bloom frequently at high nutrient levels simply due to the over abundance of N&P. I’ve always assumed this was also the case at low nutrients where less hardy microbial life quickly starves and either creates newly available habitat for cyano, or releases a food source for it. Cyano tends to exist in our tanks no matter what we do, detectable or not. It seems like it’s just opportunistic if the right conditions present themselves. I’d be curious to see more official laboratory testing on the subject and if those parameters could be determined.

I understand that’s the theory for Dino’s, but I’ve not seen evidence it applies to cyano.

 

[Crustaceon]

I understand that’s the theory for Dino’s, but I’ve not seen evidence it applies to cyano.

Is there a working theory for cyano? I hope there’s at least a rudimentary understanding considering how many products exist to treat something seemingly so mysterious. This hobby definitely is not easy.

 

[AVVITT]

Tanks can do weird things from time to time, including going through ugly phases related to nutrients. Thankfully, those nutrient levels will often balance themselves out and the tank will bounce back in appearance seemingly on its own. I’ve never been a fan of “dosing to correct” when it comes to nutrients, instead opting to just feed more or less and letting the full process within the tank end in a natural balancing of nutrients. Above all, it’s better to do nothing than to make a major change. This is going to be a process that will likely take weeks to come to fruition. Make sure your fish are always fat and happy. This is absolutely beneficial for the tank’s biological filtration so long as the fish are actually eating the food and not leaving it on the bottom to rot. You can also dose a recommended amount of beneficial bacteria daily although it’s up in the air whether or not that’s actually beneficial.

Since using bacto balance and bacto pellets from Tropic Marin, I've seen great growth in corals. The test will now be to see if I can get this horrible brown stuff away, nutrients back up (by feeding heavy as I've always done) and get it all back on track.
Like you, I'm not a fan of chemicals and dosing to correct. I'd prefer to work out how to achieve a natural balance.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Since using bacto balance and bacto pellets from Tropic Marin, I've seen great growth in corals. The test will now be to see if I can get this horrible brown stuff away, nutrients back up (by feeding heavy as I've always done) and get it all back on track.
Like you, I'm not a fan of chemicals and dosing to correct. I'd prefer to work out how to achieve a natural balance.

Are you also using bacto pellets?

 

[Dan_P]

Is there a working theory for cyano? I hope there’s at least a rudimentary understanding considering how many products exist to treat something seemingly so mysterious. This hobby definitely is not easy.

The cause of a nuisance photosynthetic organism bloom could be difficult to discover because microorganisms do not grow as solitary organisms but in a complex community. For example, filamentous cyanobacteria have been found to grow together with aerobic heterotrophic bacteria. Maybe stimulating heterotrophic bacteria growth is the event creating the conditions for luxurious films and mats of cyanobacteria. The cyanobacteria might just be along for the ride of a heterotrophic bacteria bloom. The same holds for dinoflagellates. They don’t live in isolation of bacteria.

Things are mysterious when they are multifactorial and even worse when there a big stochastic effect. In this case, you throw up your hands and say poo happens.

 

[AVVITT]

Are you also using bacto pellets?

Yes

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yes

This is what I meant with my previous comment you had another source of carbon in your tank that was removing nutrients, ideally you should of just use one of the methods, NP-bacto balance or pellets.
NP-bacto balance is ideal in low nutrient as it will replenish organic N and P wile removing inorganic Nitrates and Phosphates, this is one of the reasons you observe a good growth with the product they remove inorganic nutrients that is harder for coral to assimilate for organic nutrients that are fairly easy to assimilate.

Pellets are ideal for high nutrients only, you should of discontinue the pellets once you hit 10-5 nitrates and just used the NP bacto balance as the pellets will only remove nitrates and phosphates they don’t replenish organic nutrients.

 

[AVVITT]

This is what I meant with my previous comment you had another source of carbon in your tank that was removing nutrients, ideally you should of just use one of the methods, NP-bacto balance or pellets.
NP-bacto balance is ideal in low nutrient as it will replenish organic N and P wile removing inorganic Nitrates and Phosphates
Pellets are ideal for high nutrients only, you should of discontinue the pellets once you hit 10-5 nitrates and just used the NP bacto balance as the pellets will only remove nitrates and phosphates they don’t replenish organic nutrients.

Ah right, I must have missed that, sorry.
I was under the impression the bacto pellets did a similar job as these "home" the phosphate consuming bacteria which in turn feeds the corals?
That's why I started it because Tropic Marin recommend it for reducing nutrients but this also produces the phosphate consuming bacteria that the corals can consume

 

[sixty_reefer]

Ah right, I must have missed that, sorry.
I was under the impression the bacto pellets did a similar job as these "home" the phosphate consuming bacteria which in turn feeds the corals?
That's why I started it because Tropic Marin recommend it for reducing nutrients but this also produces the phosphate consuming bacteria that the corals can consume

Both products stimulate the same bacteria the only difference is that the liquid form they also add artificial nitrogen and phosphorus this allows the end user to be able to run a ultra low nutrient system without bottoming out nutrients.
The pellets are designed in a different way and will bottom out nutrients unless you add phosphates separately to avoid bottoming out phosphates that in your will not allow the bacteria to assimilate carbon and phosphates.

for low nutrient you only use the liquid form as organic n and p becomes limited in high nutrients the situation is fairly different, that’s why I thought the situation is strange it’s fairly hard to bottoming out nutrients wile using the liquid form only.
They all target different types of nutrients.

Heterotrophic bacteria will assimilate inorganic nutrients and coral and other autotrophic organisms will assimilate and use organic nutrients better than inorganic

 

[AVVITT]

Makes total sense now.
Message understood.
I will take my reactor offline tonight

Both products stimulate the same bacteria the only difference is that the liquid form they also add artificial nitrogen and phosphorus this allows the end user to be able to run a ultra low nutrient system without bottoming out nutrients.
The pellets are designed in a different way and will bottom out nutrients unless you add phosphates separately to avoid bottoming out phosphates that in your will not allow the bacteria to assimilate carbon and phosphates.

for low nutrient you only use the liquid form as organic n and p becomes limited in high nutrients the situation is fairly different, that’s why I thought the situation is strange it’s fairly hard to bottoming out nutrients wile using the liquid form only.
They all target different types of nutrients.

Heterotrophic bacteria will assimilate inorganic nutrients and coral and other autotrophic organisms will assimilate and use organic nutrients better than inorganic