Nutrients or Whole Tank Nutrition?

[Brandon McHenry]

I always run T5’s because I feel it is one of the best light sources out there. I’m my last fixture I ran two 6500’s, but wow it was yellow. So I dropped down to one. Some of these T5’s bulbs have a good range. What are your go to T5 bulbs If you weren’t running MH’s?

Just my thoughts on the question, the ATI True actinic compliments the 6500k really well and helps tame down the yellow look. That pair goes nicely with the blue plus to cover most of the spectrum.

 

[Reefahholic]

Just my thoughts on the question, the ATI True actinic compliments the 6500k really well and helps tame down the yellow look. That pair goes nicely with the blue plus to cover most of the spectrum.

I had to run 4 blue+ to fade out that 1 6500. That thing was like the mid day sun on my reef which is probably why the corals seem to enjoy it.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I had to run 4 blue+ to fade out that 1 6500. That thing was like the mid day sun on my reef which is probably why the corals seem to enjoy it.

I tried one paired with the actinic and I feel like the deep purple was better at washing it out than the blue. I’m sure the corals enjoyed it, I think mine did too! It’s tough to compare though when everyone has personal preferences about the way they view their tank.

 

[Lovefish77]

Nice conversation....following

 

[Lovefish77]

Just wanted to throw a scifi thought. Since we are all objectively focused on nitrates as a metric or proxy for nutrients, is there another way to test available nutrients? By that I mean nitrate tests residual nutrients after the tank processes it and after organisms use it, but is there another test to tell us how much nutrients are actually there right now (say like right after feeding the tank)?
To give you an analogy they always compare our ideal reef tank to the actual coral reef. They say that the reef has zero nitrates but in spite of that it has huge amounts of food passing through it all the time in the form of plankton for instance.
So there is a ton of food but not the aftermath of food rotting to the point you get nitrates. I know the ocean is an open system and cannot be compared to our reef tanks but just try to get the idea. Maybe we can devise a way to test water like before and after feeding with an TDS meter or something

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Just wanted to throw a scifi thought. Since we are all objectively focused on nitrates as a metric or proxy for nutrients, is there another way to test available nutrients? By that I mean nitrate tests residual nutrients after the tank processes it and after organisms use it, but is there another test to tell us how much nutrients are actually there right now (say like right after feeding the tank)?
To give you an analogy they always compare our ideal reef tank to the actual coral reef. They say that the reef has zero nitrates but in spite of that it has huge amounts of food passing through it all the time in the form of plankton for instance.
So there is a ton of food but not the aftermath of food rotting to the point you get nitrates. I know the ocean is an open system and cannot be compared to our reef tanks but just try to get the idea. Maybe we can devise a way to test water like before and after feeding with an TDS meter or something

As far as I know nothing like that exists. The reason is because the food we add is in forms we cant test for (proteins, fats, aminos, carbs, etc). Closest you could probably get to an estimate would be by weighing out all your food and refer to the nutritional analysis on the back of the packaging to estimate how much nitrogenous material is being added from that feeding. I think its much easier to just feed multiple times per day with a variety of pelleted, frozen, powdered and liquid foods to make sure everything in your reef has something to eat. With lots of fat and happy fish, and strong export, its safe to say that a reef tank has plenty of food running through it to be successful even without high residual levels showing up on a test kit. While there is no way to truly mimic what the ocean does, this is a close attempt and it works for many reef tanks out there.

 

[jda]

A super accurate low range ammonia/ammonium test kit could work, but they do not exist. Salifert used to have a DOC test kit although I never used one.

 

[92Miata]

A super accurate low range ammonia/ammonium test kit could work, but they do not exist. Salifert used to have a DOC test kit although I never used one.

Might be a use case for a Seneye.

 

[jda]

It would have to be accurate, super low range and be able to read both ammonia and ammonium which change many times a second in our tanks. Seneye is better left to see if your fishes gills are going to melt as a swag for nh3 only.

I once looked at such a device and was seeing something like $20k for a meter, from what I could tell... but this was probably a decade ago, or more.

 

[92Miata]

It would have to be accurate, super low range and be able to read both ammonia and ammonium which change many times a second in our tanks. Seneye is better left to see if your fishes gills are going to melt as a swag for nh3 only.

I once looked at such a device and was seeing something like $20k for a meter, from what I could tell... but this was probably a decade ago, or more.

The Seneye displays both Ammonia and Ammonium (although I'm not sure if its calculating one from the other and the pH reading) - and seems to be able to read down into parts-per-billion.

People are seeing fluctuating readings of 1-10 ish parts per billion in cycled reef tanks.


Screen shot from someone who is playing around with dosing ammonia (how accurate is it actually? No idea)

 

[LOVEROCK]

I think that everybody knows that I am in the "availability over residual levels" camp. Feed a lot, export a lot and keep residuals reasonable, but low (not zero). Ammonium and ammonia are the prize to get nitrogen to SPS, not nitrate. A little bit of P is good, but not too much.

2sunny has a wonderful tank and has also posted lately about having very low residual levels but high throughput/availability.

I think that most people who have had N and P raise without dosing on the back end have seen the effect of more availability, not from having higher residuals. Their tanks would be just as good with the same feeding, but more fuge (or whatever). In nearly all cases, the availability does the heavy lifting.

Regarding low detection levels of nitrate, this is hard... my tank shows "clear" on test kits, but I have .1 to .2 on an ICP test. .1 to .2 is not zero and it is a world away. True zero is an issue, but you nearly always have to use chemicals or media to get there. My sandbed, which can chew through nitrates like crazy, always leaves enough to keep the equilibrium going forward.

Having higher levels of N and P can do other things for the tank, if you need them. They can poison dinos, matting bacteria and diatoms at levels that are not so high for most corals - some acropora will suffer at these levels, but most people just do with them and chalk them up to "too hard," which is smart. They also slow down coralline growth at higher levels, which is a plus to some. This is not the same thing as being ideal for SPS... but it does need to be incorporated into a whole-tank strategy.

You can get some deeper saturation with nigher N and P levels on some corals, but not others. Some acropora will have less differentiation in the colors if they are multi-colored, but not all. Most acropora with different colored growth tips will look better with lower N and P, but, again, not all.

I wish that more people understood that N and P are not food and are building blocks. I wish that more people understood that SPS cannot process nitrate without first turning it back into ammonia/ammonium at quite a cost of energy to the coral (we are in the SPS forum after all even though a few other corals can use no3 straight up). I wish that more people understood that dosing P is just binding more to your rock and sand with a very small amount ending up in the water column and that this could be a huge problem down the road. I wish that more people understood that lighting with the zoox making sugars is what truly feeds the coral and if they spend as much time worrying about wider spectrum (quality) over N and P that their corals would likely be a lot happier in most cases.

What dies residual levels mean ?

 

[LOVEROCK]

What dies residual levels mean ?

Nvm was posted on thread

 

[Crustaceon]

Hi fellow stick heads! I’ve been seeing a lot about nutrients on this forum lately and was hoping to add my 2 cents and maybe start a meaningful discussion. While I am a firm believer that there are many different ways to run a successful reef tank, and that SPS will thrive with varying nitrate and phosphate levels, I am confused why I see so many people talking about dosing nitrate and phosphate as a solution to SPS issues. I certainly don’t believe you have to have higher nitrate and phosphate to be successful. In fact, my water test this weekend was clear on salifert nitrate and 0ppb on Hanna ULR phosphorus checker and things look really nice. I think in my case it’s feeding my tank very heavily with many different foods and particle sizes so that everything is getting it’s required nutrition to be healthy. I guess I’m just wondering why the conversation is about nitrate and phosphate instead of feeding your reef as a whole and making sure everything is as healthy as possible. I’d love to hear everyone’s opinions on this topic!

Either you can pound food through your system throughout the day and remove the uneaten bits/ detritus before it breaks down into N&P or have absolute overkill on the nutrient reduction front, which means the tank pretty much always stays spotless, or you can just feed your tank once per day, have N&P, maybe slightly more nuisance algae (typically on the back panel) and get identical results when it comes to coral growth and coloration, all with far less risk of crashing the system. I think it’s better to start with the safe route if you’re a beginner or have a job and if you’re THAT involved with your tank’s upkeep/have constant access to your tank, then I can understand the ULNS approach. If I worked from home, I would totally go ULNS. I don’t though, so like many I make do with having N&P as a buffer.

 

[Crustaceon]

Just because pictures speak louder than words, this is one of my acro frag’s growth over 7 months. I have what many would consider elevated nitrates and phosphates in my system and have always wondered if my growth rates are as good as they’re going to get or if running an ULNS would actually yield increased growth. I’ve always done things old school, but who knows, new ideas can be better.

8 dkh
430 Cal
1360 Mg
1.026 Sg
10ppm No3
.08ppm Po4
78 degrees in winter, up to 84 in summer.
Heavily stocked 55g display (65g total system)
Feeding is one frozen cube of mysis or spirulina brine per day.
Skimmerless and no refugium/ats
1g daily water change.
Kamoer fx-stp dosing 1ml/min saturated kalk
Dual Jebao SLW-20 pumps
Coralife 6-bulb T5ho lighting (9 hours)

 

[ramona]

I just wanted to show everyone what my “heavy in” looks like for the night after 4 rounds of pellets earlier in the day. I’d love to see what other heavy in heavy out reefers feeding habits look like!

How do you make your own frozen mix/recipe?

 

[rynosreef]

Great discussion...

My way of thinking of it is this... The natural reef is a VERY dynamic place. There's a shark, ripping apart a grouper every 2 minutes, and tangs grazing algae constantly, and so on.

Yes, the reef has nearly undetectable NO3 and PO4, but that's not because there's none available. There's just a MILLION mouths that gobble it up the moment in becomes available. And not all reefs are crystal clear, some are cloudy with particulate matter which certain Acropora thrive in.

The values of N and P are just windows (and small windows at that) into what's left over in the water column. So for example let's say you have 2 tanks that both test 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate:

Tank 1: 90 gallon, 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate, 3 fish fed one pinch of pellet food every other day. Minimal filtration.

Tank 2 90 gallon, 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate, 14 fish fed 5 times a day. Lots of filtration (or in a perfect world the coral themselves consume most of it without the need for excessive filtration)

Tank 2 will be successful with thriving Acropora. Tank 1 will have pale, starved acros, with little growth.

Part of what makes this work I believe is the bacteria. Perhaps the bacteria in fish waste or the overall load is what helps feed the growth and coloration of the coral and zooxanthellae.

 

[Stigigemla]

Lets look at waterchanges. There is usually a tide on a reef. Lets estimate that the tide is 0,5 m/s (20 inch a second) and the tide comes - goes two times a day and that the current is for 2 hours.
A calculation: 0,5 x 3600 x 2 x 2 = 7200m. That is the distance water is moving in this example.
If we think of a 1 meter cube (40 inch ) somewhere with this circulation the water is totally changed 7200 times each day. There is usually some circulation beside the tide too.

In a lagoon it is a bit different. Let us exlude the currents from outside and just look at the watermass in the lagoon. If the lagoon has an average deep of 15 foot and the tide is 6 inches there will be a water change of 1/30 every time the tide comes. That means 1/15 every day.
Another lagoon calculation. Compare with an aquarium completely covered with corals and a lagoon with the bottom also completely covered with corals. The lagoon gets new 6 inches of fresh sea water every tide. And we estimate that the corals have about the same metabolism in both cases.
That would be like you shift 6 inches water height in a tank 2 times every day.

Now it is easy to see why the water will not be depleted of nutrition even with the low values we have in the sea. In order to keep the values somewhat that stable we need to keep them many times higher than the daily consumption.