observations of an old salt

[BeltedCoyote]

Personally if you are new to the hobby it is far less cheaper to buy established rock that dry rock when you consider all the equipment meds dips treatments loss of coral and fish you will factor in with dry sterile rock

med, dips, and the like are not a prerequisite with going with sterile rock. If you actually follow due diligence when introducing stock you don’t have massive die off. It happens more with dry rock starts. But again, that’s from impatience and not inspecting what you put into your tank. I will grant you it’s more likely, but I’ve seen plenty of experienced people use only dry rock and their tanks are just as successful. It just takes more time.

 

[HuduVudu]

maricultured rock is the closest we have to live rock yanked from reefs like the old days - “true” live rock in my mind

Live Rock and Reef used to have (and I think still does) rock from crazy places. My rock is from Africa somewhere, and the grow out from the piorites that I got on it is insane. Ohh and those tube worms came with it too. This was about six years ago.

 

[schuby]

My first tank in 2004, a 90 gal reef, had around 150 lbs live rock. It became beautiful with SPS fish and other corals that I added after a few months. At the time, I knew nothing about keeping fish. My LFS sold me a complete setup with a calcium reactor, MHs, and a copy of Conscientious Marine Aquarist. I had that tank for about 12 years. My current, 2nd tank started Jan, 2019 with dry rock didn't progress as fast or as well as my 1st tank. I'm going to add some wonder mud from ipsf.com to increase biodiversity.

 

[HuduVudu]

My first tank in 2004, a 90 gal reef, had around 150 lbs live rock. It became beautiful with SPS fish and other corals that I added after a few months. At the time, I knew nothing about keeping fish. My LFS sold me a complete setup with a calcium reactor, MHs, and a copy of Conscientious Marine Aquarist. I had that tank for about 12 years. My current, 2nd tank started Jan, 2019 with dry rock didn't progress as fast or as well as my 1st tank. I'm going to add some wonder mud from ipsf.com to increase biodiversity.

You can still get live rock if you want. It is out there.

 

[BeltedCoyote]

Obviously you don't need maricultured rock to start a reef. That was the whole point of my post. Trying to bring more awareness to an alternative reefing philosophy.

I have ordered Tampa Bay rock and I can assure you that it is very "alive".

I’m not arguing with you at all LOL. I’m just saying, you don’t REALLY need maricultured or rock taken from an actual coral reef any more than you need a skimmer (as was pointed out) to start a reef.

and I know Tampa bay rock is live. That’s why I plan on getting some myself. Just said I consider it maricultured rather than the traditional notion of live rock.

that’s all man.

Edit. I realize I have semantics the crap out of myself inadvertently. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

med, dips, and the like are not a prerequisite with going with sterile rock. If you actually follow due diligence when introducing stock you don’t have massive die off. It happens more with dry rock starts. But again, that’s from impatience and not inspecting what you put into your tank. I will grant you it’s more likely, but I’ve seen plenty of experienced people use only dry rock and their tanks are just as successful. It just takes more time.

Yes patience comes with experience which new reefers generally do not have

 

[Sump Crab]

med, dips, and the like are not a prerequisite with going with sterile rock. If you actually follow due diligence when introducing stock you don’t have massive die off. It happens more with dry rock starts. But again, that’s from impatience and not inspecting what you put into your tank. I will grant you it’s more likely, but I’ve seen plenty of experienced people use only dry rock and their tanks are just as successful. It just takes more time.

WWC comes to mind. Plenty of beautiful dry rock started tanks out there. That philosophy just isn't for me though. Cheers.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

You can still get live rock if you want. It is out there.

Yep started out my tank with 65 pounds of well established pukani rock from a trusted source. Also have about 200 pounds of dry Fiji Pukani and Marshall island rock and still hoarding. Trusted meaning well cared for and no copper treatments in tank. I saw a posting for someone selling established Marshall island rock that had been exposed to copper. I almost cried literally

 

[Vette67]

Amen brother. 100% agree with you. But I also come from the old days where my rock was trans-shipped from Fiji to my front door. And I got everything. Aptasia, mantis shrimp, bristle worms, valonia. But I also got cryptic sponges, amphipods, tube worms (that I literally grow by the thousands), and countless species of beneficial bacteria that are simply unavailable in any bottle. I don’t understand the fear of pests. Every single one has a simple, biological solution. And I’m sorry, if cost is a major consideration, then you chose the wrong hobby. It floors me that people are willing to shell out $700 on a wave maker that has dubious benefits, and then complain about the cost of live rock. But I think you are correct. Starting with live rock should be seen as an investment in the biodiversity of your tank that will pay you back immeasurable benefits in the long run. But the dry rock / bottle bac culture is so ingrained in the hobby now, that it won’t go away any time soon. Too much money to be made selling bottles of bacteria in perpetuity. And it’ll be us old timers remembering that we never heard of or went through the “ugly phase” when we started our tanks.

 

[Sump Crab]

Amen brother. 100% agree with you. But I also come from the old days where my rock was trans-shipped from Fiji to my front door. And I got everything. Aptasia, mantis shrimp, bristle worms, valonia. But I also got cryptic sponges, amphipods, tube worms (that I literally grow by the thousands), and countless species of beneficial bacteria that are simply unavailable in any bottle. I don’t understand the fear of pests. Every single one has a simple, biological solution. And I’m sorry, if cost is a major consideration, then you chose the wrong hobby. It floors me that people are willing to shell out $700 on a wave maker that has dubious benefits, and then complain about the cost of live rock. But I think you are correct. Starting with live rock should be seen as an investment in the biodiversity of your tank that will pay you back immeasurable benefits in the long run. But the dry rock / bottle bac culture is so ingrained in the hobby now, that it won’t go away any time soon. Too much money to be made selling bottles of bacteria in perpetuity. And it’ll be us old timers remembering that we never heard of or went through the “ugly phase” when we started our tanks.

So true. Thanks for your response.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

Amen brother. 100% agree with you. But I also come from the old days where my rock was trans-shipped from Fiji to my front door. And I got everything. Aptasia, mantis shrimp, bristle worms, valonia. But I also got cryptic sponges, amphipods, tube worms (that I literally grow by the thousands), and countless species of beneficial bacteria that are simply unavailable in any bottle. I don’t understand the fear of pests. Every single one has a simple, biological solution. And I’m sorry, if cost is a major consideration, then you chose the wrong hobby. It floors me that people are willing to shell out $700 on a wave maker that has dubious benefits, and then complain about the cost of live rock. But I think you are correct. Starting with live rock should be seen as an investment in the biodiversity of your tank that will pay you back immeasurable benefits in the long run. But the dry rock / bottle bac culture is so ingrained in the hobby now, that it won’t go away any time soon. Too much money to be made selling bottles of bacteria in perpetuity. And it’ll be us old timers remembering that we never heard of or went through the “ugly phase” when we started our tanks.

Exactly. I spent 12 bucks a pound on my established Pukani and bought 50 dollar wave makers. Not a speck of algae on my rock only grows on my 30 dollar diy ATS. My tank is eight months old. I have some bristle worms but they eat waste and clean out the deep pores of the most important thing in my tank—my biological filter

 

[hotdrop]

Where does one even get the stuff. It seems like unobtainium especially during covid.

 

[Thespammailaccount]

Amen brother. 100% agree with you. But I also come from the old days where my rock was trans-shipped from Fiji to my front door. And I got everything. Aptasia, mantis shrimp, bristle worms, valonia. But I also got cryptic sponges, amphipods, tube worms (that I literally grow by the thousands), and countless species of beneficial bacteria that are simply unavailable in any bottle. I don’t understand the fear of pests. Every single one has a simple, biological solution. And I’m sorry, if cost is a major consideration, then you chose the wrong hobby. It floors me that people are willing to shell out $700 on a wave maker that has dubious benefits, and then complain about the cost of live rock. But I think you are correct. Starting with live rock should be seen as an investment in the biodiversity of your tank that will pay you back immeasurable benefits in the long run. But the dry rock / bottle bac culture is so ingrained in the hobby now, that it won’t go away any time soon. Too much money to be made selling bottles of bacteria in perpetuity. And it’ll be us old timers remembering that we never heard of or went through the “ugly phase” when we started our tanks.

I have not even been reefing for a year and I approached the hobby like most other things I do in life. Find and follow the guidance of someone that has wisdom and has been successful in the long run so I followed the guidance of a hobbyist who has been in hobby for more that 30 years

 

[fishguy242]

no comments,read through,old school, REAL live rock,skimmer, reefing since 91

 

[Nano sapiens]

I’ve started two tanks with actual live rock. They were my healthiest and easiest tanks to start, but ultimately, the invasive pests they brought with them were the reason I took them down.
i feel if I want a 5-10 year tank chock full of acros, I need as pest free of an environment as I can get. That being said, I don’t, and never have had a tank filled with acros, so this is at best an assumption, and at worst wishful thinking!

Starting with live rock (or at least a portion of live rock) will very likely not result in pests that predate specifically on SPS (acropora, montipora, etc.). If some hitchhiker(s) do eat coral in general, then they should be easy to spot (Gorilla crabs, for example) and remove unlike the ones that come in on SPS frags/colonies that drives SPS keepers crazy (acropora flatworms, Monti nudibranchs, etc.).

Reading through these posts I realized just how much knowledge has either been lost or forgotten in regards to handling ocean live rock. Back in the day it was fairly common for Indo-pacific live rock to be kept on egg-crate (or similar) under saltwater spray bars for a few weeks over saltwater tubs (recirculating systems). Very effective at drastically reducing or even eliminating the 'nasties' which would vacate the rock after a few days and end up in the tubs, while the coralline algae under lighting would typically survive this process. This is the type of fantastic rock I got in the early '90s from Harbor Aquatics and I still have a few pieces in my current nano system.

How about this for thinking outside of the box a bit for those afraid of hitchhikers. To avoid them, take a piece of ocean live rock or two and place them into a filter sock. Tie up the end real good so that nothing can get out and place it in a position where it gets some flow. The microbes (bacteria, archaea, etc.) are so tiny that they can easily pass through a typical filter sock designed to catch detritus and will then populate the reef tank, but nasties will be stuck inside the sock. Once the inoculation is completed (a week or two should do it, but more time won't hurt), one can remove the sock and pass the live rock on to another aquarist or sell to a LFS.

You won't get the full biodiversity benefit, but at least you'll get the foundational microbes that are so often lacking in dry rock only setups.

 

[fishguy242]

now were talking,HARBOR AQUATICS,..Joy was the best,was torn when she shut down!!!

 

[Nano sapiens]

now were talking,HARBOR AQUATICS,..Joy was the best,was torn when she shut down!!!

They were a great set up, indeed! I read that she had shut down, but as they say 'All good things must pass'.

 

[fishguy242]

They were a great set up, indeed! I read that she had shut down, but as they say 'All good things must pass'.

still in touch with to this day,are doing great still in saltwater biz but not livestock,went to an expo few years back just to give her a hug and say hi

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Maybe you missed the Mantis Shrimp they were real killers

Some people would set up separate tanks just for them because they were so beautiful.

Never got one of them. Had a buddy who caught his with a soda bottle trap and kept it in his sump, cool little creatures.

 

[Sump Crab]

To you truly old school guys from the 90's - I can only imagine the quality of the rock you got back then. 15 years ago we were still getting pacific rock that was full of life at the LFS but not to the extent you experienced. Most of my rocks to this day are some of those choice pieces, unique and beautiful shapes compared to most i see today. I did a live rock refresh to add life to my systems about 8 years ago and ordered from Tampa Bay saltwater. They shipped it in water and I picked it up from the airport. It was spectacular imo although the shapes were not as nice as pacific stuff I bought in the mid 2000's. I've read that there are similar options comparable to TBS from the pacific these days. If that's true then there are still options available to newbies.