observations of an old salt
- Thread starter Sump Crab
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OP
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Sump Crab
Valuable Member
I think that the worms, starfish, sponges, snails, pods, tunicates, etc. play just as vital of a role in a reef tanks biodiversity as bacteria does. Even if I am wrong I enjoy these critters in my little slice of the ocean. They are the reason I switched to saltwater 15 years ago.
Snoopdog
Valuable Member
Hell I enjoy looking at my refugium as much as my tank.
OP
OP
Sump Crab
Valuable Member
There will always be those who practice poor husbandry in the hobby. I don't think one can deny that a tank will mature faster with liverock, even if it did present its own set of potential problems. Nothing is fail safe in the hobby and the same types of problems are sure to surface no matter the decade.
blasterman
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This disinformation in harmful. Starting with dry rock doesn't kill fish. Next, the irony is we dip new corals because we don't want all the bad things that come from other peoples tanks, eh?
People start with "dry, sterile tanks" because they can't get live rock, or it too expensive. Or the local reef store has live rock full of aiptasia and other pests. Or, their live rock comes from tanks with no fish to sustain the bacteria so its barely better than dry.
I'm a strong proponent of life rock. However, live rock has only one clear advantage over dry rock - time. Live rock accelerates tank maturity because the bacteria are already established. Fast forward 6months down the road and live rock is no better than dry.
Most of the killer showcase tank I've seen lately are founded with manufactured rock because the owner doesn't view natural reefs as something to harvest. Yep, they were dry and sterike at one point but now are superior to the OPs.
Hahaha, I’ve been reefing for about 40 years. What does that make me, “way too” old school I guess?
No doubt. Pulling caulerpa out of your overflow and pipes is no joke!
All my tanks over the years were started with live rock and I’ve found just about everything crawling out of it. Had a dozen long spines urchins hatch out once, all sorts of odd worms. I’ve pulled bristle worms out of my rocks that were 2’ long. If you don’t think that was a predator, not sure what to say.
My last tank had so many bristleworms is was downright ridiculous. With this tank I was ready for a change so I started it with 100% dry pukani. Did it take longer to grow the biome and get going? Sure, but it’s fine now and I have no creepy crawlers.
My point is there is there is no “right” way. Obviously starting with dry rock will get your biome going much faster and is a much easier way to do a reef tank. But if you want a clean tank, it can be done with dry rock too. You just need more patience. After 40 years of reefing, that’s something I have.
OP
OP
Sump Crab
Valuable Member
Really man? You honestly think that the only benefit to live rock is time? I mean you really believe this? You don't think that there are benefits to having a diverse ecosystem? You think that the critters nature created to keep a reef balanced have no possible beneficial role in our tanks? And then you bring my tank into question by saying its "inferior" to others? Who are you to say who has a better tank than someone else? I've never had a crash in 15 years. My tanks have changed over time but the rocks have stayed the same. I don't dose so maybe my corals are not crazy fast growers but that's how I chose to enjoy the hobby. Ill still be reefing in 15 more years unlike most of the people with "superior" tanks than mine.
OP
OP
Sump Crab
Valuable Member
To everyone insinuating that I said that live rock is the only way you are incorrect. I never said that. I merely wanted to bring more awareness to a different method of reefing that more and more newbies have any idea about. There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat. Why are people so defensive about there dry rock starts? Inferiority complex or something 
?
I don't want this thread to turn toxic. Let's be positive here.
?I don't want this thread to turn toxic. Let's be positive here.
tvan
Active Member
Live rock, live rubble, live sand, the same thing for bacteria. Garf already answered this type of thread back in the day. Tampa Bay live rock is just dry rock dumped into the polluted gulf of Mexico. And when they (Tampa Bay) first started were considered a poor choice of live rock. All that said I would love to have an old piece of my Fuji back just because of the aesthetic.
OP
OP
Sump Crab
Valuable Member
I see where you stand but I gotta say its about more than the bacteria. Maybe its just me but I would have never got into the hobby by starting with dry rock, even if it does end up being as viable as liverock after months have passed. I just couldn't see myself enjoying a tank that lacked all the cool critters that come in from the ocean. They are the ones who create a true slice of the ocean. I'm not really into the psychedelic wwc type displays we see everywhere now. Sure they are beautiful pieces of art but they are not a slice of the ocean IMO. I want the ocean in my house, not a living display of art. Certainly you can understand my position?
Midrats
Valuable Member
If I had a time machine I'd go back to the Nineties. The only thing I would bring with me are a few Tunze Streams. There I would never have to see another frag plug or white iceberg rock again!
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
Your doser would be SpectraPure (if you were lucky). You might have a Reef Octopus (if you were lucky) and you would be fighting with your Knopp reactor, and your high tech skimmer would have an air stone. But bio balls would be readily available for your wet/dry.
Ohhh and don't forget the people that were still advocating for undergravel filters.
Those were the days
Snoopdog
Valuable Member
Maybe I am just not getting where everyone is coming from on the issue with hitchhikers. With good comes bad. I had issues with all kinds of critters in my rock. Bristle worms are getting that much hate these days? They never bothered anything of mine. If they got too populated I put in a arrow crab and let him take them down a few notches. I agree with Jrain, do not let this turn ugly. This is a discussion, not politics.
I am just one week back into the hobby and trying to understand the changes. The greatest new addition I see is LED lighting, that is so welcomed by me. I do not miss the heat output of halides, I can leave that behind.
I am just one week back into the hobby and trying to understand the changes. The greatest new addition I see is LED lighting, that is so welcomed by me. I do not miss the heat output of halides, I can leave that behind.
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
Ooofff ... they work ... yaahhhh ... but the bed maintenance. I guess they are better now to because you can get real flow throw the tank. It was such a big deal to get power heads to put on your lift tubes. I bought them right away because the airstones sucked so bad and you had to replace them and the salt creep. Yikes. Not mention the buzz of the air pump.
HuduVudu
2500 Club Member
He created a plenum, not an undergravel. It is very common to use undergravel plates for the dead space.
I have been using plenums for over 20 years. My current tank is a hyper version of the plenum and is quickly evolving into it's own unique type of system.
joshwaggs
Active Member
I think ALL of this comes down to preference. You can start a tank either way. The question is: "What do you want out of your tank?"
Do you want to deal with the pests?
Are you willing to wait for things to balance out?
Do you care about aptasia?
Do you have the tank size to add the natural defenses or remedies to the problems?
Do you want a piece of the ocean in its natural state? Or do you want a show piece that is packed with color and is pristine? Or do you want something in the middle?
Many people arent willing to wait or sacrifice expensive coral, while pests and other issues from live rock balance out. Neither side is wrong. Old timers tend to be stuck in their ways and new kids want to try the newest thing out. It is the same in every part of life.
Also, you can get dry rock that already looks like live rock. So if you are concerned with the ugly stage of a new tank, you can spend the money to avoid a lot of it.
Bottom line: People join the hobby for different reasons. Maybe someone saw a Eatsleepreef youtube video and loved the neon colors. Maybe someone went diving for the first time and loved the natural reef look and wanted a way to have it all the time. Either way, it is preference.
Do you want to deal with the pests?
Are you willing to wait for things to balance out?
Do you care about aptasia?
Do you have the tank size to add the natural defenses or remedies to the problems?
Do you want a piece of the ocean in its natural state? Or do you want a show piece that is packed with color and is pristine? Or do you want something in the middle?
Many people arent willing to wait or sacrifice expensive coral, while pests and other issues from live rock balance out. Neither side is wrong. Old timers tend to be stuck in their ways and new kids want to try the newest thing out. It is the same in every part of life.
Also, you can get dry rock that already looks like live rock. So if you are concerned with the ugly stage of a new tank, you can spend the money to avoid a lot of it.
Bottom line: People join the hobby for different reasons. Maybe someone saw a Eatsleepreef youtube video and loved the neon colors. Maybe someone went diving for the first time and loved the natural reef look and wanted a way to have it all the time. Either way, it is preference.
OP
OP
Sump Crab
Valuable Member
Personal preference plays a huge part! That's for sure. There is absolutely nothing wrong with knowing both ways to start a reef and going with the way you think is best for you. I just want newbies to know that there is another way to start a reef. Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Food for thought, I know that people point out that the pest issues are worse in a tank with liverock but I would counter with my belief that pests present a much greater problem in a sterile environment. If a pest happens to show up in a tank that lacks the equilibrium attained in a biologically diverse system then they will have a much greater chance to reach plague proportions versus just being another part of an ecosystem that features checks and balances. I have "pests" in my tank like red planaria, unknown anemones, asterina stars, bristle worms, bubble algae, etc. but they all have found a place in the ecosystem that works. They don't take over, merely exist in an appropriate amount.
Of course if one QT's everything 100% of the time and leaves coral frags in fallow tank for months at a time and medicates everything as a preventative measure they will never experience pest problems. I just don't think most people do that.
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