OK am opinionated but it annoys the heck out of me.

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2569CCD5-4275-4920-91A8-D680264B8711.jpeg
I always thought it meant the clowns showed the anemone to it's reserved table, brought breadsticks, and checked up on it's meal satisfaction right at the moment it had a mouthful of food.
 
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atoll

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Lo
I think you're all convoluting Sentience with Sapience. The clownfish does not debate whether it flees, or fights, it does so by nervous response. There is no internal dialogue there which would indicate volition or motive. Self Preservation is, indeed, an instinct. A clownfish fleeing danger is no more an active decision than a flinch or a sneeze.
Do we have concrete evidence of this as in a scientific paper on clownfish or other to support your claims? I put up one such a little while back published by the RSPCA here in the UK. I think clownfish have a lot more going for them than we give them credit for.
 
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Lo

Do we have concrete evidence of this as in a scientific paper on clownfish or other to support your claims? I put up one such a little while back published by the RSPCA here in the UK. I think clownfish have a lot more going for them than we give them credit for.
I think the autonomic nature of the 'fight or flight' response is beyond debate at this point. There are peer reviewed studies on it dating back to before it's official description by Cannon in 1915.

Alas I could not find your publication, although I would fancy a good read of it. I invite you to PM me a link to it.
 
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I think the autonomic nature of the 'fight or flight' response is beyond debate at this point. There are peer reviewed studies on it dating back to before it's official description by Cannon in 1915.

Alas I could not find your publication, although I would fancy a good read of it. I invite you to PM me a link to it.
Struggling to find that one again, not sure exactly what I put in Google to find it. I will continue to search however.
I did stumble on the following during my search.
And another.
 
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I think the autonomic nature of the 'fight or flight' response is beyond debate at this point. There are peer reviewed studies on it dating back to before it's official description by Cannon in 1915.

Alas I could not find your publication, although I would fancy a good read of it. I invite you to PM me a link to it.

Just found the origional copy and paste I put up. Here's the link
 
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Struggling to find that one again, not sure exactly what I put in Google to find it. I will continue to search however.
I did stumble on the following during my search.
Again, that's sentience.

Sapience is what I take issue with, which would be the willing, conscious, and self-aware actions which are often misattributed to animals.

Current studies show very few truly sapient animals. Ravens being most notable, humans being of questionable quality in that arena.
 

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You don't think the clownfish has a conscious desire to avoid being eaten and It recognising the danger and takes avoiding action to do so?

Quote "
will to survive the determination to live in spite of an adverse situation (e.g., a severe illness or disabling disorder) or extreme conditions (e.g., lack of food and water or long-term or harsh imprisonment). Also called will to live.

APA Dictionary of Psychology

dictionary.apa.org/will-to-survive

dictionary.apa.org/will-to-survive
Nope, I do not.
 

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Again, that's sentience.

Sapience is what I take issue with, which would be the willing, conscious, and self-aware actions which are often misattributed to animals.

Current studies show very few truly sapient animals. Ravens being most notable, humans being of questionable quality in that arena.
Thank you!
 
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Lo

Do we have concrete evidence of this as in a scientific paper on clownfish or other to support your claims? I put up one such a little while back published by the RSPCA here in the UK. I think clownfish have a lot more going for them than we give them credit for.
That was not a scientific paper/article on ANY sense of the word!! It was a blog post!
 

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Are you sure that's a condy anemone doesn't look like one to me :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:
Looks very like a mag to me.
It is in my tank. Here are Suspect A and Suspect B chillin' in their adopted condy anemone (been over a month now).

500AB401-3FA2-41BE-8AA4-DD9F09FB249A.jpeg
 
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So not to dive into everything, but in a very broad statement..... if you are taking anything and putting it in a tank vs leaving it in the ocean, I kinda don't think you can preach "oh well you need to make a natural habitat" because natural would mean to make an ocean for them..... like millions of gallons and tide changes and moon phases and keep up with pollution and blaaaa. but i think to bash anyone who comes to a forum to ask "is this ok for my parameters" is not only hypocritical, but very toxic to the community. This coming from someone who has a nem/clown only tank... Most captive bred clowns have never seen a nem, and therefore might not take to them. and thats ok. I am a huge advocate of captive bred everything (if possible) to help sustain the oceans in any way possible. I get you're overall opinion of making natural habitats, but that literally not possible, unless you want to leave everything in the ocean..... in the ocean.
 
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So not to dive into everything, but in a very broad statement..... if you are taking anything and putting it in a tank vs leaving it in the ocean, I kinda don't think you can preach "oh well you need to make a natural habitat" because natural would mean to make an ocean for them..... like millions of gallons and tide changes and moon phases and keep up with pollution and blaaaa. but i think to bash anyone who comes to a forum to ask "is this ok for my parameters" is not only hypocritical, but very toxic to the community. This coming from someone who has a nem/clown only tank... Most captive bred clowns have never seen a nem, and therefore might not take to them. and thats ok. I am a huge advocate of captive bred everything (if possible) to help sustain the oceans in any way possible. I get you're overall opinion of making natural habitats, but that literally not possible, unless you want to leave everything in the ocean..... in the ocean.
We have been there before many many times and I have never said my tank or any other is natural only that I try and make it as natural as reasonably possible. This is what happens when people fail to read all the thread or ar least my posts and answers. BTW We also have a duty of care with our animals.
 
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I have never said my tank or any other is natural only that I try and make it as natural as reasonably possible.
I’m curious on what you’d say a ‘natural’ tank looks like?
Is it something that mimics a reef and exactly like what you’d see in a specific area in the world or is it a reef with everything originating from one specific spot (E.g. Indonesia) with even the rockwork looking like something you’d find in that area?
 
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I’m curious on what you’d say a ‘natural’ tank looks like?
Is it something that mimics a reef and exactly like what you’d see in a specific area in the world or is it a reef with everything originating from one specific spot (E.g. Indonesia) with even the rockwork looking like something you’d find in that area?

Like many human homes there are many different types some taking a mixture of different styles to complete them.
I try and create what I have seen many times either diving or snorkeling reefs in the Read Sea. I haven't done so in Indonesian, the Caribbean or Africa. I have only watch many videos and programs on those and the like.

I have tried the modern trend of minimalistic approach and binned it going back to a more is more reefscape. That comes with lots of rock , caves bolt holes and overhangs. Places for security and in some cases breeding.

I don't have a particular themed tank, so in that sense it diverts one way from the natural. I have fish from Indonesia, the Caribbean, Africa and so on. However, they live in harmony...for the most part, just the odd squabble now and again.

Creating my aquariums I do start with a plan and clear idea on what I want to create with the fish etc I want in mind. My fish are chosen with care and to mix well with personality (if I am aloud to call it that) and or colour even if many would be unlikely to encounter one another in the wild.

Now some people will pick holes in the above tell me there is nothing natural about my tank, fine. I don't care, its as natural as can be given constraints of a glass box and within the reasons I place upon myself.

Finally, we are moving away into what should be a different thread one which I have covered many times and I don’t wish to do that here.
Here is a recent video of my tank to illustrate the above but I don’t intend to continue answering those who would see fit to challenge me on it. It is what it is.
 
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You don't think the clownfish has a conscious desire to avoid being eaten and It recognising the danger and takes avoiding action to do so?
A clownfish doesn't have a conscious anything. It doesn't have the brain structures necessary for consciousness.


Lo

Do we have concrete evidence of this as in a scientific paper on clownfish or other to support your claims? I put up one such a little while back published by the RSPCA here in the UK. I think clownfish have a lot more going for them than we give them credit for.
"Fish are conscious" is a claim that would need a LOT of high quality evidence - it's not her job to disprove it - it's your job to prove that claim.

Sentient basically just means "reacts to stimuli" - clams are sentient. Snails are sentient. Of course fish are sentient. It has nothing to do with consciousness - that's Sapience. Sapience isn't just self recognition - it's about abstract thought and generalization. There's no evidence that any fish are even close (but some debate about a couple molluscs)
 
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A clownfish doesn't have a conscious anything. It doesn't have the brain structures necessary for consciousness.



"Fish are conscious" is a claim that would need a LOT of high quality evidence - it's not her job to disprove it - it's your job to prove that claim.

Sentient basically just means "reacts to stimuli" - clams are sentient. Snails are sentient. Of course fish are sentient. It has nothing to do with consciousness - that's Sapience. Sapience isn't just self recognition - it's about abstract thought and generalization. There's no evidence that any fish are even close (but some debate about a couple molluscs)
But I made the claims origionally and as yet nobody has come up with anything to disprove mine. No scientific paper which I have asked for. I did provide links to backup my claim. Where are the ones disproving them, I would have thought people would have done so.
 
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