OK am opinionated but it annoys the heck out of me.

[atoll]

Most people in the US don't know where Wales UK is but think "Wales" live in the sea and eat shrimp or the occasional anchovy.

Even I don't know where Wales is and I have been living there for 4 years. I think you turn right off the M56 ...or is it left.

 

[atoll]

The difference is @Paul B doesn't attack. Paul will tell you what he thinks, but only when asked!

I haven't attacked anybody but I have been attacked for my views. That's the real difference here. Some people just refuse to move on.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

But what we don't want to do is play the victim role...

@atoll trying your best to keep feelings and personal bias out of it, can you elaborate more on sentient when talking about clowns?

 

[atoll]

But what we don't want to do is play the victim role...

@atoll trying your best to keep feelings and personal bias out of it, can you elaborate more on sentient when talking about clowns?

I did put a link up from a fish biologist about fish and what they feel a few posts back.
When I first kept clowns about 40 odd years ago magnifica nems were considered impossible to keep.
So to me the clowns looked out of place and confused doing things they wouldn't do if they had their natural host.
Not long after I bought a magnifica anemone which I kept for about 7 years under a 250w metal halide.
Soon after the introduction of the nem my 3 common clowns entered it. They appeared much happier and just as I had viewed them on the reef when I dived and snorkled. They just seemed so much happier frolicking in their nem.

Obviously fish like clowns don't smile or have facial expressions but IMO their actions tell you a lot as to if they are happy with their lot or not.

 

[Reefing Madness]

No elaborating needed, lets just keep the thread on track folks.
Thanks

 

[atoll]

IMO the first photo is of clowns in the corner of a tank close to a powefilter intake which I consider far from ideal, not natural and are simply making the most of the situation they have been put in.

This is my anemone with my pair of clowns exhibiting the kind of behaviour I have witnessed on the reef when I have dived and when snorkeling.
IMO this is much much better for the clowns and their genetics draw them in to it as they would be on the reef. Now we can call it what we will, I call it happiness and not so.

Actually in my photo the male is out of sight attending eggs as he often does.

 

[Tamberav]

I agree, @Sisterlimonpot

Here’s another quote from someone with brilliant words of wisdom. I’m not sure if you know this person, but they are simply out of this world!



That reefer always says the most thought-provoking comments! Anthropomorphism is something humans do that can sometimes cause more harm than good. Kind of like the old lady who swallowed the fly story because another organism will be “upset“ with the anemone present. Then it is back to square one.

Clownfish should be “happy” they aren’t in my sushi roll or being chased by sharks in the wild.

It's the clownfish that be chasing sharks!

 

[Miami Reef]

It's the clownfish that be chasing sharks!

Oh my geez.

I never knew this was possible!

 

[Daniel@R2R]

It's the clownfish that be chasing sharks!

Haha! That's pretty awesome!

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

IMO the first photo is of clowns in the corner of a tank close to a powefilter intake which I consider far from ideal, not natural and are simply making the most of the situation they have been put in.

This is my anemone with my pair of clowns exhibiting the kind of behaviour I have witnessed on the reef when I have dived and when snorkeling.
IMO this is much much better for the clowns and their genetics draw them in to it as they would be on the reef. Now we can call it what we will, I call it happiness and not so.

Actually in my photo the male is out of sight attending eggs as he often does.

@atoll thank you for elaborating and keeping this thread on track.

That first picture with the clowns in the corner looks like a very sterile tank, possibly in the lfs. Almost suggesting that they haven't been there long.

My clowns, never exposed to an anemone, seems (applying sentient traits) fairly happy. Albeit they've only been in my care for 4 years. They treat me like that shark when I get close to their clutch, and extend beyond their established territory in the tank in between clutches.

I don't doubt that when presented with an anemone to frolic in, they will exhibit traits not normally seen otherwise but it's a stretch to say they're "happier" because of it.

 

[atoll]

@atoll thank you for elaborating and keeping this thread on track.

That first picture with the clowns in the corner looks like a very sterile tank, possibly in the lfs. Almost suggesting that they haven't been there long.

My clowns, never exposed to an anemone, seems (applying sentient traits) fairly happy. Albeit they've only been in my care for 4 years. They treat me like that shark when I get close to their clutch, and extend beyond their established territory in the tank in between clutches.

I don't doubt that when presented with an anemone to frolic in, they will exhibit traits not normally seen otherwise but it's a stretch to say they're "happier" because of it.

Will we ever know the truth 100%? However if given the choice between a suitable nem and something else then the fish themselves would decide. Most don't have that luxury.

 

[Dom]

Fish don't have "a will to survive". They don't have a will at all.

Isn't the "will to survive" survival instinct? We all have survival instincts.

 

[Dom]

I haven't attacked anybody but I have been attacked for my views. That's the real difference here. Some people just refuse to move on.

Ignore the trolls. They usually go away when you do.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Isn't the "will to survive" survival instinct? We all have survival instincts.

The definition of "will" according to the Oxford Dictionary:

"the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action."
"a deliberate or fixed desire or intention."

Synonyms: determination, desire, wish.


And it's clear that the OP meant "will" in the sense of conscious desire and action, not just instinct.

 

[atoll]

The definition of "will" according to the Oxford Dictionary:

"the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action."
"a deliberate or fixed desire or intention."

Synonyms: determination, desire, wish.


And it's clear that the OP meant "will" in the sense of conscious desire and action, not just instinct.

You don't think the clownfish has a conscious desire to avoid being eaten and It recognising the danger and takes avoiding action to do so?

Quote "
will to survive the determination to live in spite of an adverse situation (e.g., a severe illness or disabling disorder) or extreme conditions (e.g., lack of food and water or long-term or harsh imprisonment). Also called will to live.

APA Dictionary of Psychology​

dictionary.apa.org/will-to-survive

 

[StatelineReefer]

You don't think the clownfish has a conscious desire to avoid being eaten and It recognising the danger and takes avoiding action to do so?

I think you're all convoluting Sentience with Sapience. The clownfish does not debate whether it flees, or fights, it does so by nervous response. There is no internal dialogue there which would indicate volition or motive. Self Preservation is, indeed, an instinct. A clownfish fleeing danger is no more an active decision than a flinch or a sneeze.

 

[blaxsun]

My pair of clownfish are currently hosting a condy anemone.

 

[Miami Reef]

My pair of clownfish are currently hosting a condy anemone.

 

[killer2001]

Yeah lets start attaching anemones to our clownfish!!!

 

[blaxsun]

Sometimes they're under it - does that count?