OLD NEWBIE SUMP QUESTIONS

[Reba Whisenhunt]

I am attempting to build a 125 gallon sump after having been out of the hobby for enough years to be considered a newbie since EVERYTHING has changed and i have been studying and reading everything I can find on YouTube and websites.

I have had my glass cut and am ready to begin the silicon but am not sure of myself enough know if my plans are right… can you please help me?

• How much room is needed for my return? My pump is a Neptune Cor 20. I have allocated 17".
• Is this enough? Too much?
• Can this pump be run externally? Which application would be most beneficial and/or the least trouble? Internal or external? If external, can you direct me to a picture and explanation of how this pump should be set up? Since it isn't in the water will it overheat?
• I have a NYOS Quantum 220. Have I allowed enough room (12") for this skimmer? My fuge could give a few more inches if necessary! But maybe I should leave enough room for a larger skimmer in case I need it... NYOS Quantum 300 maybe... DT is 180 gallons. Sump is 125. Will the 220 be sufficient?
• Should the drain and emergency overflow pipes be in or out of the water? I would like for the drain to be under water to enable siphoning, but the emergency drainpipe opening to be out of the water so I will hear any splashing that might indicate a clogged drainpipe or siphon break.

Will you please give me an overall critique on my design? How would you change it? I look forward to seeing how each of you will respond. I only want to do this once! I am afraid of missing something important! Thanks for your input.

 

[Idoc]

1. I like to keep the water level around 3" above the return pump inlet. The more water in this section, the easier it will be for your ATO to keep it stable. For perspective...I have a 40g breeder sump and my space is about 8" x depth of the tank. I think your 17" is more than enough...it could probably be smaller. I also keep my heaters in this section.

2. I prefer a pump submerged over an external pump. The only reason I choose this option is that it is one less thing outside the sump to accidentally start leaking.

3. I'm not familiar with the 220 skimmer...but always go bigger if possible. And, always leave room in that section for other skimmer sizes, other pumps, etc... If you expand stuff, it will probably be in this section.

4. Run your main full siphon drain line to exit about 1-2" below the water surface...this will keep it really quiet. The emergency line should exit about 2-4" above the water line so that you can hear water going through it so it alerts you to a possible problem. Also, on the last section of piping into your sump on the main drain line...it doesn't have to be glued since there is minimal pressure here. This last few inches of section can them be taken off easily if ever needed to probe up into the line for snails, etc...

I had a similar design to your's initially in my head, but ended up just going with one filter sock and using an after-market sock holder with magnets. By doing this, it really opened up more space in my skimmer section...and my main drain pipe enters about 2-3 inches below the water line, so no water splash or splashing over and into filter socks. You could probably get away with one large 7" diameter sock...and it was way easier to build the sump, lol.

Another thing to consider...and what I would change about my sump -- I would not put the refugium in the middle of the sump again! I would put it on the far right and feed it with a little water from my main drain so that I could control the flow through the refugium. And then, put your return pump chamber in the middle of the sump. With a low flow through the refugium, you can then just let the water cascade over into the return chamber since it will be much slower flow.

 

[RocketEngineer]

I too put the refugium on one end and the return in the middle. In my case, I fed the refugium from my return pump but either a drain or return works.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

Also if you are using silicon make sure it is aquarium safe.

 

[Reba Whisenhunt]

1. I like to keep the water level around 3" above the return pump inlet. The more water in this section, the easier it will be for your ATO to keep it stable. For perspective...I have a 40g breeder sump and my space is about 8" x depth of the tank. I think your 17" is more than enough...it could probably be smaller. I also keep my heaters in this section.

I didn’t include my ATO in this diagram but yes, I am planning to install it in the return. How do you regulate the depth of the water in your return? Can I also plan on 8” for the width of my return, to include the pump, 2 heaters and the ATO?

2. I prefer a pump submerged over an external pump. The only reason I choose this option is that it is one less thing outside the sump to accidentally start leaking.

I understand your concerns about an external pump leaking…if I were to go that route, the pump would need to be installed directly over my sump as I am limited on space… my entire “sump room” is the space beneath my staircase! I’m going to name my sump “Harry”.

3. I'm not familiar with the 220 skimmer...but always go bigger if possible. And, always leave room in that section for other skimmer sizes, other pumps, etc... If you expand stuff, it will probably be in this section.

The 220 has a performance of up to 500… that being with a light bioload. With a medium bioload it has a recommendation of 250 gallons I hope to not need to go bigger any time soon but if I do I’ll go with the 300 so I will modify my skimmer section to accommodate the larger skimmer right now.

4. Run your main full siphon drain line to exit about 1-2" below the water surface...this will keep it really quiet. The emergency line should exit about 2-4" above the water line so that you can hear water going through it so it alerts you to a possible problem. Also, on the last section of piping into your sump on the main drain line...it doesn't have to be glued since there is minimal pressure here. This last few inches of section can them be taken off easily if ever needed to probe up into the line for snails, etc...

I definitely agree with you about the drain lines… however I had not thought of placing a few inches of extra pipe on the main drain … what a great idea!!!

I had a similar design to your's initially in my head, but ended up just going with one filter sock and using an after-market sock holder with magnets. By doing this, it really opened up more space in my skimmer section...and my main drain pipe enters about 2-3 inches below the water line, so no water splash or splashing over and into filter socks. You could probably get away with one large 7" diameter sock...and it was way easier to build the sump, lol.

I already had an acrylic tray made with holes to hold three 4” socks. The drain section of my sump flows over into the ‘sock tray’ filling the socks which then exits the bottom into the skimmer section and now over and through the bubble trap and then over to the refugium

Another thing to consider...and what I would change about my sump -- I would not put the refugium in the middle of the sump again! I would put it on the far right and feed it with a little water from my main drain so that I could control the flow through the refugium. And then, put your return pump chamber in the middle of the sump. With a low flow through the refugium, you can then just let the water cascade over into the return chamber since it will be much slower flow.

I am very interested in what you are saying about the refugium being on the far right and the return in the middle…you say you feed the fuge from the main drain to control the flow through the refugium… I’m afraid I am just lost. I don't understand "flow" Do you have a diagram or a picture you can share? I’m a visual person!! I like to have the excess nutrients that don't go through the the skimmer flow into the fuge to feed the macroalgae or Chaeto and thus not be released back into the display tank... does that make sense?

 

[Reba Whisenhunt]

Also if you are using silicon make sure it is aquarium safe.

good advice! Thank you!

 

[RocketEngineer]

Skimmer on left with drains behind skimmer, return in the center, refugium on right. Notice, the water level in my refugium is much higher than you get normally. In my case, the refugium is fed off the return pump with a valve on the refugium inlet to control flow.

 

[Idoc]

I didn’t include my ATO in this diagram but yes, I am planning to install it in the return. How do you regulate the depth of the water in your return? Can I also plan on 8” for the width of my return, to include the pump, 2 heaters and the ATO?

The water in the return chamber is regulated by the pump and the drain lines. After you set your return pump speed/flow (this is done with a controller on a DC pump, or a valve on the return line with an AC pump), then you will fine turn your drain line full siphon gate valve to set the water depth you want in your return. I actually chose a water level in my return chamber and marked that on the sump glass...then adjusted the drain line valve until the water level in the return section stayed at that chosen depth.

Then, you will setup your ATO to maintain that water level as well with its sensors.

You should be able to have a width of 8-10" in the return section. I don't have the calculation, but you can look up a formula where you can determine the gallons of water in that section to see how much you will be maintaining.

I am very interested in what you are saying about the refugium being on the far right and the return in the middle…you say you feed the fuge from the main drain to control the flow through the refugium… I’m afraid I am just lost. I don't understand "flow" Do you have a diagram or a picture you can share? I’m a visual person!! I like to have the excess nutrients that don't go through the the skimmer flow into the fuge to feed the macroalgae or Chaeto and thus not be released back into the display tank... does that make sense?

I'll have to see about creating a quick drawing...I can't right now since at work. But, on the main drain line (after your gate valve controlling the flow down to your sump) some people put a PVC "T" and then run a line over to their refugium to allow some water that hasn't gone through their skimmer chamber to feed their refugium. You also put a valve on that line so you can set the amount of water/flow to go to the refugium.

Here's a good source of info: Reef Tank Sump Design - gmacreef

 

[Reba Whisenhunt]

Thanks to y’all for the thought-provoking feedback on my first sump design. Here is my second try… Please let me know what you like about it and what you don’t. If your experience or knowledge has shown you a better way, please don’t hesitate to

tell me. I welcome any thoughts because I have never built a sump before and I welcome any and all advice! Thanks! Reba

 

[Reba Whisenhunt]

The water in the return chamber is regulated by the pump and the drain lines. After you set your return pump speed/flow (this is done with a controller on a DC pump, or a valve on the return line with an AC pump), then you will fine turn your drain line full siphon gate valve to set the water depth you want in your return. I actually chose a water level in my return chamber and marked that on the sump glass...then adjusted the drain line valve until the water level in the return section stayed at that chosen depth.

Then, you will setup your ATO to maintain that water level as well with its sensors.

You should be able to have a width of 8-10" in the return section. I don't have the calculation, but you can look up a formula where you can determine the gallons of water in that section to see how much you will be maintaining.



I'll have to see about creating a quick drawing...I can't right now since at work. But, on the main drain line (after your gate valve controlling the flow down to your sump) some people put a PVC "T" and then run a line over to their refugium to allow some water that hasn't gone through their skimmer chamber to feed their refugium. You also put a valve on that line so you can set the amount of water/flow to go to the refugium.

Here's a good source of info: Reef Tank Sump Design - gmacreef

 

[Idoc]

Thanks to y’all for the thought-provoking feedback on my first sump design. Here is my second try… Please let me know what you like about it and what you don’t. If your experience or knowledge has shown you a better way, please don’t hesitate to

tell me. I welcome any thoughts because I have never built a sump before and I welcome any and all advice! Thanks! Reba

I think you are on the right track!

Watch the depth of the water in the sump. I can't tell by the drawings how deep each section will be... but make sure you have plenty of open room above the baffles so water can back-siphon from the main tank back into the sump when you shut off your return pump.

Setting the depth around the ideal depth for your skimmer is good.

Also have 2" between bubble trap baffles. You'll thank me later when trying to clean down in between them.

If you can use a dark glass or plastic in the refugium to keep as much light as possible from spilling into the return chamber... or other sump areas... that would be good. Otherwise you will get algae and coralline algae growing all over the place.

 

[Reba Whisenhunt]

I think you are on the right track!

Watch the depth of the water in the sump. I can't tell by the drawings how deep each section will be... but make sure you have plenty of open room above the baffles so water can back-siphon from the main tank back into the sump when you shut off your return pump.

Setting the depth around the ideal depth for your skimmer is good.

Also have 2" between bubble trap baffles. You'll thank me later when trying to clean down in between them.

If you can use a dark glass or plastic in the refugium to keep as much light as possible from spilling into the return chamber... or other sump areas... that would be good. Otherwise you will get algae and coralline algae growing all over the place.

 

[Reba Whisenhunt]

I didn’t include my ATO in this diagram but yes, I am planning to install it in the return. How do you regulate the depth of the water in your return? Can I also plan on 8” for the width of my return, to include the pump, 2 heaters and the ATO?

I understand your concerns about an external pump leaking…if I were to go that route, the pump would need to be installed directly over my sump as I am limited on space… my entire “sump room” is the space beneath my staircase! I’m going to name my sump “Harry”.


The 220 has a performance of up to 500… that being with a light bioload. With a medium bioload it has a recommendation of 250 gallons I hope to not need to go bigger any time soon but if I do I’ll go with the 300 so I will modify my skimmer section to accommodate the larger skimmer right now.


I definitely agree with you about the drain lines… however I had not thought of placing a few inches of extra pipe on the main drain … what a great idea!!!

I already had an acrylic tray made with holes to hold three 4” socks. The drain section of my sump flows over into the ‘sock tray’ filling the socks which then exits the bottom into the skimmer section and now over and through the bubble trap and then over to the refugium



I am very interested in what you are saying about the refugium being on the far right and the return in the middle…you say you feed the fuge from the main drain to control the flow through the refugium… I’m afraid I am just lost. I don't understand "flow" Do you have a diagram or a picture you can share? I’m a visual person!! I like to have the excess nutrients that don't go through the the skimmer flow into the fuge to feed the macroalgae or Chaeto and thus not be released back into the display tank... does that make sense?

Ok, let me say thank you to all y'all for commenting and sharing your experiences... With this post I have included my third (and hopefully final ) rendering in which I try to include what I think y'all were communicating. Again please feel free to other-advise if you see the need. I am wondering if the 2nd bubble-trap is overkill...I included it to disperse any bubbles from the return, if any at all. please let me know if you like this one or any of the three better!...and why! Thanks again!

 

[Idoc]

Ok, let me say thank you to all y'all for commenting and sharing your experiences... With this post I have included my third (and hopefully final ) rendering in which I try to include what I think y'all were communicating. Again please feel free to other-advise if you see the need. I am wondering if the 2nd bubble-trap is overkill...I included it to disperse any bubbles from the return, if any at all. please let me know if you like this one or any of the three better!...and why! Thanks again!

I bet you don't need that final piece of glass in the last bubble trap going into the return pump chamber from with side entering... doing away with this could give you more space back in your skimmer section... which you will want later. I only have the first 2 glass bubble trap pieces of glass (water entering my return chamber from underneath) and have never had bubbles make it to my display.

Originally you showed two drains going into one live and a split off this to feed the refugium...i think i like that better than having one full drain line going to the refugium... I'm not sure how this setup will play with dialing in the main full siphon drain line!

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

I like a splitter in the return line feeding the refugium idea

 

[RocketEngineer]

Two notes:
1) I prefer over-under-over bubble traps for two reasons: they prevent biofilms from collecting and give two opportunities for bubbles to hit the surface and pop. The way you have it now, the biofilm has no where to go in the skimmer section. If you flip the bubble trap downstream of the skimmer, it will pull the biofilm into the space between the baffles and break it up.

2) Related to #1, I found you don’t need a bubble trap after the refugium because the water sheets down the baffle which keeps it from pulling in air. If anything a single baffle the water goes under before entering the return section is probably enough. It doesn’t need to be the full height of the refugium one, it just needs to protrude above the waterline of the return section. The skimmer is going to be the main source of bubbles anyways.

HTH

 

[Reba Whisenhunt]

Ok, guys, I'm not sure if I understood all the information you gave me... great advice but I'm just not sure if I processed it as it was meant to be. I'm Including a diagram of what I THOUGHT I understood but am really not sure that I did! If you don't mind please look at my diagram and tell me if this is what y'all meant. I sure do appreciate all of your help and hope I'm not getting on your nerves... Thanks again!

 

[Reba Whisenhunt]

i ACCIDENTALLY POSTED THIS TO THE WRONG FORUM... I COPIED AND PASTED IT HERE WHERE IT BELONGS AND AM FIXIN' TO TRY TO TRANSFER THE ATTACHMENTS... IF I'M UNABLE TO DO THIS, I POSTED IT ON "sump design ideas?"



Hi, Ok here is what I have come up with now... thanks to y'all's help. I have a problem because I can't find the dimensions for the overflow boxes in the tank and I don't know how much water will back-flow from the top of the tank and the overflows with the pump off. I called Aqueon and the guy there said that it would depend on what the flow-rate was. Since the pump will be off and there is no flow-rate wouldn't the back-siphon depend on where the siphon-break was adjusted to? He insisted that the speed of the pump would control the siphon... how will I know how much to adjust the return pipe or is it a matter of wild asp guess? Sometimes I feel like I'm in over my head BUT, I'm lovin' every minute of it!!! Thanks for your patience, your feedback means a lot to me! If anyone has an Aqueon 180 and you know the dimensions of the overflows, I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't mind sharing those with me... Thanks!

 

[Reba Whisenhunt]

i ACCIDENTALLY POSTED THIS TO THE WRONG FORUM... I COPIED AND PASTED IT HERE WHERE IT BELONGS AND AM FIXIN' TO TRY TO TRANSFER THE ATTACHMENTS... IF I'M UNABLE TO DO THIS, I POSTED IT ON "sump design ideas?"



Hi, Ok here is what I have come up with now... thanks to y'all's help. I have a problem because I can't find the dimensions for the overflow boxes in the tank and I don't know how much water will back-flow from the top of the tank and the overflows with the pump off. I called Aqueon and the guy there said that it would depend on what the flow-rate was. Since the pump will be off and there is no flow-rate wouldn't the back-siphon depend on where the siphon-break was adjusted to? He insisted that the speed of the pump would control the siphon... how will I know how much to adjust the return pipe or is it a matter of wild asp guess? Sometimes I feel like I'm in over my head BUT, I'm lovin' every minute of it!!! Thanks for your patience, your feedback means a lot to me! If anyone has an Aqueon 180 and you know the dimensions of the overflows, I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't mind sharing those with me... Thanks!