Old tank syndrome is vanquished in reefing now

[brandon429]

Agreed the rip clean is the best of both worlds.


we can try and run the reefs ideally, and for the 80% that cannot including me, we use rip cleans as cheat catch ups. The old standard was ride out the initial arrangement clean into the dirt if it headed that way, because bacteria we so finicky and weak we couldn't dare insert a cleaning hand

a rip clean makes use of truth in surface area mechanics to rip away accumulations the 20% couldn't keep in balance.

 

[littlefishy]

Appreciate the effort and concern to help make the hobby better/easier, Brandon. It took me a while to understand your phrasing, and therefore your theories, but I'm giving you props for doing this in a 2nd language. Actually, same goes for Paul B, too, except the 2nd language part.
I have a 200g sitting in storage just waiting for the right time, and I'll be running with some of these ideas.

 

[TheDragonsReef]

Regular maintenance is key for any long term success. My 265g has been running for almost 15 years and nitrates and phosphates stay between 10-15ppm and 0.06-0.10. I clean the sand bed in small sections spread out over a few weeks once a year and blow the live rock out probably twice a year. Other than that I let the bacteria do the rest and I have a wall of live rock.

 

[Miller535]

My Tank is about 10 years old. Have had all of the same rock the entire time. I have always had sand, but I have replaced the sand 2 times. Once because I was having some OTS issues (about 5 years in), which replacing the sand instantly cured. And just replaced it again about 2 months ago. This time I did it because I moved, and just didn't have time to clean all the sand (DT is 125 gallon). I do regularly vacuum the sand, and am a big proponent of doing so. I am also a big proponent of having lots of critters for a clean up crew. I have 2 pincushion urchins that everywhere they have just cleaned, they clean the rock clean to the rock, consuming coraline and all. I have never understood why so many people are OBSESSED with having coraline encrusted and covering every square inch of their reef. When that happens you choke off every porous hole in your liverock making it useless for filtration purposes. A healthy tank will grow coraline, but that doesn't mean you want it on every single surface.

 

[littlefishy]

I don't understand "RIP" clean and am glad I don't have to do it. To me a reef tank should be eternal, self sustaining, ever lasting and not fraught with problems as so many tanks seem to be. If a reverse Undergravel filter is the key, which it seems to be, why doesn't everybody do that?

I have never had to RIP clean anything except my man cave and I don't need extra work on a fish tank that I just want to sit there for 50 years without causing me any unnecessary, ridiculous work just to keep it doing what it is supposed to do.

Agreed the rip clean is the best of both worlds.


we can try and run the reefs ideally, and for the 80% that cannot including me, we use rip cleans as cheat catch ups. The old standard was ride out the initial arrangement clean into the dirt if it headed that way, because bacteria we so finicky and weak we couldn't dare insert a cleaning hand

a rip clean makes use of truth in surface area mechanics to rip away accumulations the 20% couldn't keep in balance.

If I'm understanding correctly, you're both saying deoxygenated detritus areas are the cause of OTS? Paul is saying 'here is how to set up an unconventional system to eliminate it', and Brandon is saying 'here is how to eliminate it in a conventional system'.

 

[brandon429]

we are simply carving a new niche

100% of us reading started with hands off, which Paul has mastered

people don't begin as bare bottom tank owners, they become them for reasons listed here.

If someone is unable to master the hands off system, which is what built all reefing training material, we all get invaded tanks, dead corals, willing takedown, unenjoyment.

a deep clean bridges the gap, and its 100% reproducible. this is one of many work threads on it, using other's tanks:

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

we are simply using another way to reef. rip cleaned tanks run like a fringing, high action high oxygenation low retention zone.

other reef zones are slower, more collective

it seems we are exploiting niche differences so that we get a given look. I myself can't stand tank algae, its an eyesore.

not everyone agrees. But we have the most reproducible method on file, says all the tanks in the work threads. that's one of about 250 work threads no joke, its really fun using tank patterns to make discoveries about procedures masses can easily reproduce.

 

[DaveC]

Shouldn't it stand to reason that after a 'rip clean' we should be installing a reverse Undergravel filter?

As I understand it a reverse Undergravel filter just pumps water up through the sand. How much flow are we talking about say for a 150?

 

[brandon429]

I think that’s valid. The folks that do stick stirring as buildup prevention start with clean sands and work on keeping sand white.

if someone wants a rugf that’s a fine time to install one.
Paul still has to do deep cleans, the rugf does not absolve. He uses diatom filter storming, we use rinsing down the sink...

 

[DaveC]

Interesting

Anyway, I knew there had to be a better way. In 1979, my wife and I moved to a larger home. The contents of the 30-gallon tank were transferred into a 100-gallon tank. However, this time I did not run the undergravel filter the same way. Instead, I reversed it and sent the water down the “up-lift” tubes. [Editor’s note: This is known as a reverse-flow undergravel filter.] As the years went by, I found that the undergravel filter would work better if I diverted the water through a filter, such as a sponge, before it went under the gravel. I also experimented with different flow rates and discovered that if I fed the filter with tank water at a very slow rate, such as 50 GPH down each tube, I would also achieve de-nitrification. After these modifications, the tank went 25 years before I removed the rocks and stirred the gravel for a thorough cleaning. Although I have quite a few theories regarding this tank's success, I feel that a reverse-flow, slow running, undergravel filter is the main reason this tank has lasted successfully for four decades.

 

[Paul B]

Paul is saying 'here is how to set up an unconventional system to eliminate it', and Brandon is saying 'here is how to eliminate it in a conventional system'.

Remember an undergravel filter is not an unconventional system. It was the only system when the hobby started. They were used decades before all these sand systems came into being. I just reversed the flow after figuring out that if you run it the way we all did in fresh water, it crashes in a year or less. I am not sure why, but it does.

I run 150 GPH down each of the 3 tubes in my 125 gallon tank. The system can obviously run for 50 years with no problems and very little maintenance so I don't know why almost no one uses them.

Brandon is very good at this and has his own ways to do this a little different from me.

 

[DaveC]

@Paul B I'm probably making this more complicated than it needs to be, but does your undergravel filter completely cover the bottom of your tank? since mine is 60x24 I would need 2 of THESE ?

 

[Paul B]

Dave, yes it covers the entire bottom of the tank. I have 3 of them. My tank is 72 inches long.

 

[Thaxxx]

LOL, That "cough syrup" is "SleepEze". I am a terrible sleeper and about 3 times a week need something "along" with and in addition to the Grand Marnier and melotinin I drink every night so I can sleep.

I supposedly have PTSD (which I think made me better, my wife doesn't think so) but according to the Veterans Administration the main reason I can't sleep. My mind can't shut off and I keep inventing all night in my bald head.

If I see any piece of machinery, a bent tree, Supermodel, weird fish, rock, duck or almost anything that is part of life, my mind will mull it over all night and try to re-invent it or in the example of the tree, see what I could make out of it. The Supermodel elicits other memories like when I worked for Playboy or the Victoria Secret Photo Shoots. (I wanted to put on their wings but they are like all 7' tall so I couldn't reach their shoulders)

Machinery, especially if it has gears, pulleys, belts, pistons, hydraulics, cams or almost anything made of metal drives me crazy because my mind can't just let that go as numerous configurations go through my head as to what I could do with those gears. What really cool device I could build from them to help mankind solve the energy problem, bring world piece, feed the hungry or figure out what is wrong with Dr. Zeuss books.

Sounds more like OCD than PTSD

 

[brandon429]

I’m 100% sure that starting off in a clean mode vs a hands off mode saves coral loss and tank losses for the masses.


the prior rules had it wrong, by sending everyone off on the methods the top reefs ran, normal aquarists who otherwise could keep coral long term using directed methods failed and we killed corals solely due to the training. The top reefers have unspoken skills that are hard to communicate, thats the challenge. The rote easy steps of a rip clean are easy to transmit.



Teaching that intervention was disrupting was wrong, being able to command the direction of a reef tank using decisive means reinforces and invigorates thousands of work thread tanks it turns out

we can make the common reef work better with manual cleaning than RUGF specifically but that doesn’t mean I think the method isn’t great, it works for the oldest reef on the web for sure.








my first pico died solely because I didn’t know it was ok to take out rocks and scrape off or torch burn invasive red asparagopsis

All reef training is hands off, that cleaning or removal destabilizes


I tried chemi clean, more indirect hopefuls, and it just took over till I stopped caring for the system, this hands off mode consequence happens on repeat for new keepers, collectively tons of corals are now dead.

the exact opposite is how new reefers should begin, disallow any takeovers. The uglies are a false premise, we can do the opposite and be more successful.

aquascape in ways that let you access the rocks outside the tank if needed, our losses are dropping big time in pico and nano reefs because information trades in close circles for those kinds of tanks, they’re mini modeling ways larger tankers can begin with to ensure control.


switch to the perfect hands off mode once you’ve earned a few years causing your own success vs hoping for it.


that’s how I summarize my own experience and how OTS relates to today’s reefing in my opinion.

cleaner systems run longer during power outages because they’re less diverse, that’s an ironic safety tradeoff.

When power gets cut or water stills, or the system must be left alone a long time, having fewer oxygen-commanding bacteria and fewer diverse benthic creatures to begin dieoff/ a loss cascade makes the coral support last longer, see an example below.

 

[brandon429]

Florida university remote rip clean run to fix display tanks lost due to corona lockouts

Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) in reef tanks?

Due to corona my school was shut down and aquarium care was at a minimum. At the time I was an unpaid volunteer and just came by to feed the fish a couple times a week and refill a sump with DI water so it didn’t dry up. Turns out the facility manager was not doing water changes for an...

www.reef2reef.com

*this job here is for remediation it isn’t much about best ways to run a reef that remains an ongoing valid discussion. Just an example of what a eutrophic system looks like, they’re dull yellows and gray colors, cloudy masses blanketing surface area, no pop no craggy rock surfaces it’s all blanketed in retained loss waste. How we fix that is surgical

message follow up:

​

Nov 10, 2020
I wonder how your system fared now that we're months back into reassembly can you let me know how that university system is doing!
B


Nov 11, 2020
Hey there! I will send you pics today or tomorrow. The tank acquired hair algae and red cyano because our budget only allows us to use natural sea water, but we are working on partnering with Emerald Coast Coral Farms to get pharmaceutical grade saltwater. The corals are very happy with the new setup!

 

[howaboutme]

@brandon429 What do you think about the rise in popularity of ICP tests? To me, it provides way too much information causing one to chase #'s that you can't truly chase. Of course there are benefits that offset the mass amount of information but I question our reliance on those tests.

 

[brandon429]

I’m no good at chemistry so my lateral pass would be to the posts in the chem forum where Randy and crew discuss ability to get accurate numbers from those tests, I read that it is very hard to account for parameter accuracy in the tests given all the various organic states for target params

No nano reef owner will ever need those other than for just seeing an interesting picture of what the test says, we can do one quick huge water change and now we closely match what the bag of salt says it contains...the ICP tests seem geared towards the low water change types of setups. Dutch synthetic reefing setups/no water change all dosing seem to like those tests for tuning.

since no brands of reef salt mix up lethally, they’ll all support aquarium coral, the nuances between brands don’t matter much in the higher exchange rate systems. My own reef runs on LFS premade water, and when they change brands I don’t care or even inquire, water changes on nanos is always fine for the long term.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I’m 100% sure that starting off in a clean mode vs a hands off mode saves coral loss and tank losses for the masses.

the prior rules had it wrong, by sending everyone off on the methods the top reefs ran, normal aquarists who otherwise could keep coral long term using directed methods failed and we killed corals solely due to the training. The top reefers have unspoken skills that are hard to communicate, thats the challenge. The rote easy steps of a rip clean are easy to transmit.

Teaching that intervention was disrupting was wrong, being able to command the direction of a reef tank using decisive means reinforces and invigorates thousands of work thread tanks it turns out

we can make the common reef work better with manual cleaning than RUGF specifically but that doesn’t mean I think the method isn’t great, it works for the oldest reef on the web for sure.

my first pico died solely because I didn’t know it was ok to take out rocks and scrape off or torch burn invasive red asparagopsis

All reef training is hands off, that cleaning or removal destabilizes

I tried chemi clean, more indirect hopefuls, and it just took over till I stopped caring for the system, this hands off mode consequence happens on repeat for new keepers, collectively tons of corals are now dead.

the exact opposite is how new reefers should begin, disallow any takeovers. The uglies are a false premise, we can do the opposite and be more successful.

aquascape in ways that let you access the rocks outside the tank if needed, our losses are dropping big time in pico and nano reefs because information trades in close circles for those kinds of tanks, they’re mini modeling ways larger tankers can begin with to ensure control.

switch to the perfect hands off mode once you’ve earned a few years causing your own success vs hoping for it.

that’s how I summarize my own experience and how OTS relates to today’s reefing in my opinion.

cleaner systems run longer during power outages because they’re less diverse, that’s an ironic safety tradeoff.

When power gets cut or water stills, or the system must be left alone a long time, having fewer oxygen-commanding bacteria and fewer diverse benthic creatures to begin dieoff/ a loss cascade makes the coral support last longer, see an example below.

One takeaway that should be apparent in a thread like this is that the size of the system can play an important part in how it can be managed to prevent OTS.

Typically, a large system can function properly a lot longer without direct hands-on intervention compared to a much smaller one. That's a good part of the reason why most of the books on reef keeping in the past have emphasized getting 'the largest tank that you can afford' which is then seen as being more stable. Most 'expert' or 'master' reef aquarists have experience with large aquariums, so they write/wrote about what they are/were familiar with. They also know that most reef keepers won't be trying to keep the same system running for 10 -15 years (let alone for 50 years)

Trying the same 'hands off' approach over an extended period of time with a pico or small nano, while still have a nice thriving reef tank, just doesn't work for the vast majority. In these smaller systems one is typically trying to pack a proportionately larger amount of life into a much smaller volume of water. Flow tends to diminish (and all the issues that go with that) with increased growth and live rock and sand simply clog up much more quickly while bacterial processing efficiency declines as a result. This negatively impacts the microbiome (from our point of view) as the system changes from oligotrophic to eutrophic. And so the aquarist either starts over or upgrades to a larger aquarium...or just throws in the towel.

And so I can say that in my experience Brandon is correct that OTS is preventable and requires more direct intervention the smaller the system gets.

 

[brandon429]

I don't know how Maritza pulls it off seriously its artistic, innate

No sandbed changes for eight years, only 90% partial water changes. dosing of cleaning bacteria does happen regularly, maybe its breaking down waste better and the water changes export it vs sink in, not sure

tried this way many times over and my picos fail, but not Maritza:




Since I can't reproduce the method my leanings are towards the deep clean at least occasionally, or preventatively somehow. but its still a shocking nice old pico bowl/8 yrs no disassembly and all top shelf corals.

That pico system breaks the rules

 

[Nano sapiens]

I don't know how Maritza pulls it off seriously its artistic, innate

No sandbed changes for eight years, only 90% partial water changes. dosing of cleaning bacteria does happen regularly...

That pico system breaks the rules

Yup, there are always a few that do

Most of my sand bed is 20+ years old. IME, it's not the age of the bed per se, but rather how much gunk has accumulated in it.

I think it just goes to show that whether a system is large or small, we just don't know everything that might be going on inside. IMO, the best that we can say is that this or that particular methodology has been shown to be more likely to provide a certain outcome.