Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.

[Arabyps]

I really do not understand why this person has a excellence title.
English is not my first language, but I can read english quite well but still I do not understand most of his posts. I believe he does that just for people think he is a genius....
Like the posts I mentioned he changes his mind constantly, than say something he cannot prove, than moves on....
Who gave him an excellence badge?
Related to the business.... How many people lost fish on qt due to ammonia poisoning.... This is a really thing.

Uncalled for criticism. You don't know him - stop judging. If you have something positive to contribute, please do so.

 

[LeftyReefer]

There just seems to be a lot of talking past each other in this thread...

Everyone agrees that ammonia is toxic to fish and fish should not be subjected to ammonia if at all possible.

Nobody is arguing that.

What Brandon is talking about is doing a fish in cycle, WITH additional bacteria..... such as bottled bacteria, or live sand, rock, established media, etc.... and that you can do this process quickly and safely.... He is trying to explain that doing a fish in cycle with additional bacteria is a safe option, and does not subject the fish to elevated levels of ammonia. He is not telling anybody to cycle a tank by dropping a fish into a sterile tank and sitting back and watching... Nobody is saying to do that. That will result in a burned and stressed, possibly dead fish.

But we are saying that you can add a fish on day 1 or day 2 if you wish, by also adding additional bacteria to the tank to jump start the cycle. When doing this, the fish never sees any elevated levels of ammonia and the tank cycles quickly.

 

[Tiki Reef Joshua]

Facts hurt feelings. This thread is a perfect microcosm of current society.

 

[Cstar_BC]

There just seems to be a lot of talking past each other in this thread...

Everyone agrees that ammonia is toxic to fish and fish should not be subjected to ammonia if at all possible.

Nobody is arguing that.

What Brandon is talking about is doing a fish in cycle, WITH additional bacteria..... such as bottled bacteria, or live sand, rock, established media, etc.... and that you can do this process quickly and safely.... He is trying to explain that doing a fish in cycle with additional bacteria is a safe option, and does not subject the fish to elevated levels of ammonia. He is not telling anybody to cycle a tank by dropping a fish into a sterile tank and sitting back and watching... Nobody is saying to do that. That will result in a burned and stressed, possibly dead fish.

But we are saying that you can add a fish on day 1 or day 2 if you wish, by also adding additional bacteria to the tank to jump start the cycle. When doing this, the fish never sees any elevated levels of ammonia and the tank cycles quickly.

I Think the problem with this is that it assumes the bacteria will grow at the same rate the fish deposits waste.

For most of us that have done the ammonia dosing we know that the process plateaus and you have high ammonia for multiple consecutive days before you see a decline.

Just because you seed the aquarium does not mean you instantly have a population of bacteria ready to handle waste, you may have a miniscule population that with time will grow

Therefore even though you added bacteria you technically do have pristine water and in the initial stages the fish may be subject to ammonia burns

 

[Barnabie Mejia]

I am believer of this and proof. I started my 75 gallon on 7/21/2020
7/22/2020 - added an 11 year old clown, and 6 coral
7/24/2020 - added 6 chromis and 1 yellow coris wrasse, 2 zoa frags, 1 acan frag, 1 branching GSP frag
7/30/2020 - added Juv. orange shoulder, 1 Juv PBT, 1 Juv one spot Foxface

Total of 11 fish in 10 days. I used bacteria in a bottle, i have my Nitrates at 2ppm and holding steady.

Many people have told me that I can't do this to the fish because I would "burn them" and my tank would crash. They can come see the tank, test the water, whatever they would like to do to the tank. when I first got into the hobby, I was thinking I needed a 4 month cycle, but its not the case. How do you think frag swaps and shows go on? they have tanks "cycled" and ready for show in the same day! I spent countless hours messaging, researching, studying this stuff before I became a believer. Thank you to @brandon429 for doing what he does for this community! Don't be sheep...... IT IS POSSIBLE.

7/21/2020

7/22/2020

8/09/2020

 

[92Miata]

For me the proof is literally in how you do a fish in cycle - use “hardy” fish .

If fish in cycles weren’t detrimental to fish then everyone in the hobbywould be starting their cycles with your expensive designer super finicky fish.

People absolutely do start tanks with super finicky fish. And if you use bottle-bac, that's absolutely fine, and it works fine.

We tell newbies to use hardy fish because newbies find all sorts of ways to kill fish that have nothing to do with cycling.

I Think the problem with this is that it assumes the bacteria will grow at the same rate the fish deposits waste.

For most of us that have done the ammonia dosing we know that the process plateaus and you have high ammonia for multiple consecutive days before you see a decline.

The reason you see this is that people who dose ammonia are dosing hundreds of times what a couple of fish produce - 4ppm of ammonia is a TON of ammonia.

Fish-in cycles with bottle-bac never have measurable ammonia. There's no plateau, there's nothing. The tank is instantly cycled.

There's just no need to 'prove' that the tank can handle some ridiculous level of ammonia that has no relation to the amount of fish you're going to put into the tank.




And, as proof - bottle bac on day 1 of my 40g. Blue Devil Damsel, two clowns, a cleaner shrimp, two peppermint shrimp, snails, hermits,and a whole bunch of corals went in the first week. No losses. No measurable ammonia. Ever.

 

[brandon429]

I do not mind if anyone judges myself or my syntax harshly. What I do is amass work threads where proofs are made or broken in other people's tanks.

all I can do is provide you work links teller to read (or ignore before posting)

they show seneye data to back up my claims, it would be helpful if you would return the effort and post some links and analysis we can inspect
Id appreciate you picking out a certain cycling thread, writing your take on its status, and we compare notes @teller

let's see if you and I have wildly different takes on cycle microbiology, using any given example.
a specific tank example-- I have linked several showing successful fish in cycles and would appreciate the return


In order for you to make a clear point vs personal analysis, pick a given thread link and let's work it live time, make some predictions, and see how they pan out.


my friends with whom I do tank work in private message know that I find this to be an extreme hoot

and i accept all the good and the bad, and the darn funny lack of balance in providing example links other than happy fish

People should enjoy trading links and proof to hash out details, awaiting alternate views I can read
B

 

[brandon429]

I would whole-heartedly thank reef2reef admin for allowing exploration of such a touchy subject, I know this isn't a passive place to be. That makes it the best place to get ideas for point/ counterpoint

 

[Thales]

It seems like very simple experiments would shed light on this, and if it were done with just a little rigor, newbies could stop running the experiment over an over again.

 

[brandon429]

yes, no harmed fish required for final proofing, agreed

Seneye plus bottle bac plus ammonium chloride, new ground is broken, end to all guessing.

 

[Thales]

It also seems to me that the companies producing bottled bacteria should do experiments like this because it seems weird for hobbyists to do it for them

 

[Cell]

You have your head in the sand if you dont recognize the confusion surrounding aquarium cycling. This thread looks to break down pre- or misconceptions regarding this topic. Too often the advice of LFS and vendors is followed blindly without recognizing their inherent bias. Not sure why some seem so offended.

 

[Cell]

It also seems to me that the companies producing bottled bacteria should do experiments like this because it seems weird for hobbyists to do it for them

Would you trust the research of a company trying to sell you something affirming what they are selling you works? No. We look for independent parties with no bias.

 

[Thales]

Would you trust the research of a company trying to sell you something affirming what they are selling you works? No. We look for independent parties with no bias.

I look to companies making claims to support those claims before deciding if independent research is warranted. There is no unbiased research group for the aquarium hobby, and hobbyists doing experiments are often far from unbiased.

 

[ca1ore]

Too much effort to try to follow the OP …..

If the point is/was that folks that object to using a living fish to cycle a tank are overwrought …. then that's probably true. Back before it was verboten to use a fish to cycle a tank, I did it with damsels a bunch of times and I don't recall any of them dying. I don't do that anymore because using a couple of cocktail shrimp is easier. I also don't bother with bacteria-in-a-bottle because why pay for something that will arrive naturally anyhow. It's been noted a google times on these boards that patience is a virtue in reefing particularly.

 

[brandon429]

dont think I dont find you guys' writing any less entertaining.


If I opened the thread with: no fish are harmed during a fish-in cycle with working bottle bac, you've been making up stuff this whole time to cover inability to accurately measure nh3, we're looking for the truth--I'd still get 1/5th of each poster saying they're confused.

 

[Biglew11]

dont think I dont find you guys' writing any less entertaining.


If I opened the thread with: no fish are harmed during a fish-in cycle with working bottle bac, you've been making up stuff this whole time to cover inability to accurately measure nh3, we're looking for the truth--I'd still get 1/5th of each poster saying they're confused.

its that hard to grasp being lied by our testers for this long.

I work in a machine shop working down to 1/10,000 of an inch. And did electronics in the service, so i know about the need for accuracy. And to me it just sucks that I can't get that in a hobby grade test kit.

Right now the best we can hope for us to use the test kit in a consistant manner, so that we can recognize trends in our data.

Right now seney is the most hobbyist friendly testor for nh3. Using standard ammonia test kits we are left with just measuring total ammonia and hoping the conversion ratio is close enough to tell us if nh3 is actually pressent or dangerous.

There's a reason even big companies (reputable ones) seek unbiased 3rd party testing.

We know that fish in cycles work, we just don't have accurate ways of measuring the cycle outside of seney.

 

[amoore311]

How is this a debate? "Instant Cycle" Tanks with Bottled Bacteria + Fish have been successfully implemented for WELL over a decade.

I've been using Biospira, and then Dr Tims' One and Only since as early as 2008. Every single quarantine tank I've set up since, every single reef tank, many local reef tanks, 100's of tanks reported by BRS...... All of them started with fish and bottled bacteria.

To claim there is even a debate on this topic, with so much evidence to the positive, strikes me as odd. It's equivalent to still trying to claim there is debate that Metal Halides are better than LED's.

There's no actual debate, people just want there to be one for one reason or another.

 

[Cell]

How is this a debate? "Instant Cycle" Tanks with Bottled Bacteria + Fish have been successfully implemented for WELL over a decade.

I've been using Biospira, and then Dr Tims' One and Only since as early as 2008. Every single quarantine tank I've set up since, every single reef tank, many local reef tanks, 100's of tanks reported by BRS...... All of them started with fish and bottled bacteria.

To claim there is even a debate on this topic, with so much evidence to the positive, strikes me as odd. It's equivalent to still trying to claim there is debate that Metal Halides are better than LED's.

There's no actual debate, people just want there to be one for one reason or another.

Less of a debate and more just sustained confusion fed by bac sellers recommending their product for "stuck" cycles and LFS's going through the motions. If you think this is a clear, known quantity across the industry, then you haven't spent much time on forums where there is a constant stream of new threads of cycle confusion and frustration.

 

[Biglew11]

Less of a debate and more just sustained confusion fed by bac sellers recommending their product for "stuck" cycles and LFS's going through the motions. If you think this is a clear, known quantity across the industry, then you haven't spent much time on forums where there is a constant stream of new threads of cycle confusion and frustration.

+1
a lot of this confusion stems from hobbyist not understanding that there testing is revealing total ammonia and not just nh3, and lfs and bottle bac manufactures taking advantage of this fact.

someone sees .25ppm on there test kit and they think they have a stuck cycle or ammonia spike, when what they are likely seeing is just nh4. link to red sea https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/red-sea-ammonia-test-kit.html for an example. it says nh3/nh4, in that context means total ammonia.

we as hobbyist also need to better educate ourselves.