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Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.

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brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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= freshwater, lower risk for free ammonia post- cycle vs marine tanks, and I wouldn’t expect that fw tank above to run at 8.2

he might’ve had an ammonia event agreed, less likely is my claim.

nitrite becomes highly toxic for him due to lack of chloride per reads from Randy’s chem forums, but due to lots of chloride nitrite doesn’t matter any longer in reefing, at any phase of reefing, retire the test altogether and don’t own a marine nitrite test kit. It’ll cause doubt, and extra sales of marine bottle bac not needed to buy...that’s my added portion regarding nitrite in saltwater tank cycling.

Anyone else? list the doubts and we either ford them or falter, we are trying to discern if fish-in cycling harms our fish, primarily marine fish. Keep searching other sites for failed fish in cycles in the meantime, where something died not just a reported .2

we should strive to link at least one, by page five.
 
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Thaxxx

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They have already done videos on this as well as other professionals. As they say in the video over 100 tanks cycled with bacteria in a bottle and never any fish lost.

I cycled my tanks in the 80's with damsels and I never lost a fish that I recall.
That's how it was done back then. Was there any proof they suffered because of it?
No.
 

S2G

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If your fish is exposed to ammonia then it's harming the fish. It really doesn't matter how you get there. Why do we need to have a scientific study on cycling 101. I understand the use of fancy words & long sentences to make the discussion appear less rudimentary....but its 2020 we have all the tests we need at our fingertips.

Bottled bacteria works IF used properly it's been proven. Just use common sense & dont overload your bacteria you just started. Congratulations you just graduated K-5 level of fish keeping lol
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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Truly my intent wasnt to bait new reefers into fish-in cycling. They’re already doing it in droves, we see across all web forums



so now we can look back and analyze and learn what bacteria do, they’re going to be doing fish-in cycles anyway so let’s study it.


we as guides try and shoot down fish-in cycling, having literally no means to do so lol. We don’t have the ammonia kits as a hobby to make a single, reliable remark about what anyone’s ammonia is doing in reefing and for sure this includes comments about fish in cycling. We typically use cheap guess test kits to make statements on what ammonia does, and those readouts don’t match clear visual cues in the tank where true free ammonia is a wrecking ball

our total reefing paradigm on what bacteria do is false, ouch.
im calling out how we as reefers simply transmit all kinds of false info around, while all along Macna conventions are 3.0 light years ahead.
we can seize their techniques, and get sold less redundant stuff if we pay attention to patterns from web posts.

A few bacteria falsehoods promulgated in forums:


-that cycled bacteria will starve if not fed. (thank you DJ City for testing your live rocks at 36 mos in an unfed garage bucket, you shattered that notion and I link your thread often)

-that bacteria have to ramp up on rocks, to make up for removed sand, or coming back after fish fallow removal, to avoid a crash. False, shot down we do 35 pages of sand removal for inspection on page 3.

- that at any time in reefing, someone’s tank hit .2 nh3 and held it longer than two hours. False, didn’t occur, api says it occurred a million times. Seneye, zero.

-that fish in cycles burn or harm fish, to be determined

-that nitrite factors in reef cycles, and can set back ammonia control, no it doesn’t. I’m aware of the YouTube videos saying it matters, it gives me ads to buy bottle bac when I watch it.

- that moving live rocks among tanks requires a new cycle. those are skip cycle reefs, and no they don’t have die off at .25 levels.

- that reef water has no nitrifiers in it, also from the same youtube video about nitrite. Reef water has millions of cycling bac suspended, heres yet another work thread proving it. This is a fully cycled reef + calibrated ammonia test at the end, cycled solely in ~20 days solely by plumbing to an existing reef adding NO extra feed, or bottle bac. Reef water having no filter bac, falsehood. This reef cycled when a cycling chart said it would cycle, no bottle bac added.* the bacteria grew even though no extra feed was added* which proves natural sourcing of sustenance vs requiring our help

our entire position on what filter bac do is geared to make us buyers, not the sellers.
 
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92Miata

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Bacteria do need to ramp up - it's just that the population doubling time of nitrosomas (etc) is measured in hours, not weeks.

I put a bottle of BioSpira in my 40 on day 1. I put a pair of clowns, 2 peppermints, a cleaner shrimp, and a blue devil damsel in on day 3. Never registered any ammonia.

All dry rock (except for a couple of small pieces attached to some zoa frags that also went in on day 3)

The only reason places recommend long cycles is to sell $.03 worth of ammonia for $5.
 

S2G

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This is such a terrible discussion for a beginner to read. This is about like Paul's immunity tank with pro non quarantine.
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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we showed bac don’t use ramp up time by removing sandbeds from working reefs all at once, putting back the fish now with only rocks as surface area given no ramp up time, and both mindstream and seneye confirmed ammonia held at .00x thousandths ppm before and after, for sure ramp up doesn’t occur. But with api, it does seem to be required.

only digital ammonia testers will read in the thousandths ppm. Rocks can’t become better filters by taking on more bac, it will reduce efficiency not increase it because stacking bacteria on top of bacteria doesn’t increase surface area it reduces it. The most efficient live rocks can be as filters is with a thin sheer of biofilm free of all accumulations keeping pores open to the max. Adding more layers on top of new bac is lesser wastewater presentation to surface area, not more, on the continuum of totally closing up the pores in the rocks with detritus accumulation if low water currents allow for compounding in a particular area

when a tank has completed it’s cycle, that means all the area is used up with bac, full. It doesn’t get ’more’ or stronger cycled as weeks go by, full is full. It’s only the extra surface area growths of coralline and vermitids and attached corals that grow, accrete, increase surface area and thereby attachment points for new bacteria. This increases surface area presentation to wastewater (though coralline can sometimes overtake and plug too, it varies.)

increasing surface area from reef-building hermatypic animals is what makes live rock increase as filters over time it’s not by stacking bacteria on the same surface area. Ramp up might be the #1 fallacy in all of reefing falsehoods. Removing ancillary surface area doesn’t change ability of the current surface area left. It is either enough surface area to run a tank and the fish live, and act fine, or it’s not and they all die in a couple days.

the inconsequential, weeks-long, low level free ammonia in the tenths ppm condition stated in working reef tanks simply does not ever occur. not one time in reefing, but it comprises 100% of the proof that fish-in cycles harm fish.
 
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brandon429

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case in point. Twenty thousand more posts like these are coming, and none will report dead fish. They’ll have a nine dollar tester causing all the pain and extra purchases



extra purchases....watch this trend in threads I’ll link here, we are groomed to be buyers. All of us. We all buy comps for stuck cycles because bottle bac sellers told us some cycles stall. Or half-complete, not true.

match my statements prior to this thread above about how false cycling concepts cause massive over sales in the hobby.
 
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Alenya

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I can’t read this anymore, it’s clear you want to denounce current protocols with anecdotal evidence.

If you want to prove ammonia is not detrimental here’s a suitable study:

Set up 50 small clean sterile dry containers with same heating, some flow

Mark 25 for ammonia test and 25 for control

Fill one of each with fresh water and bring to temp

Bring ammonia test to 2ppm

Place your chosen fish x 10 or invert x 10 from a control tank (same environment) into each tank.

Change the test subjects into a new tank every day, the ammonia at 2ppm and the other as control.

Repeat for 24 days and report results.
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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Go ahead and set that up. Will accept your reports/ links when ready

We are into live tank examples which will be added here as they arise. Just added one above and we don’t even have pics yet. He’s cycled off his description alone.
 
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I can’t read this anymore, it’s clear you want to denounce current protocols with anecdotal evidence.

If you want to prove ammonia is not detrimental here’s a suitable study:

Set up 50 small clean sterile dry containers with same heating, some flow

Mark 25 for ammonia test and 25 for control

Fill one of each with fresh water and bring to temp

Bring ammonia test to 2ppm

Place your chosen fish x 10 or invert x 10 from a control tank (same environment) into each tank.

Change the test subjects into a new tank every day, the ammonia at 2ppm and the other as control.

Repeat for 24 days and report results.
I’m sorry am I missing something or are you intentionally sounding downright cruel?
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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I’m used to that though and do write in a mostly offensive manner to the estab

watch as we stack on actual fish in cycling threads for live time prediction and outcome analysis though, I’ll have twenty soon and all fish will be just fine, not burnt.

at any single possible interval it would be helpful for skeptics to post bad outcome fish in cycling threads, you’ve had all day now :) to find only one.
 

Alenya

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I’m sorry am I missing something or are you intentionally sounding downright cruel?
I find it inhumane to deliberately injure animals in order to reconfirm what we already know.

However OP seems insistent that ammonia is not harmful to fish, so I provided a study base that would isolate ammonia effects.

For some reason they insist that bacteria processing ammonia before damaging fish and inverts means ammonia is not damaging.
 
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I’m used to that though and do write in a mostly offensive manner to the estab

watch as we stack on actual fish in cycling threads for live time prediction and outcome analysis though, I’ll have twenty soon and all fish will be just fine, not burnt.
I wasn’t referring to you sir. Sorry if it came off I did. That’s why I quoted the post I was referring to.
 
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I find it inhumane to deliberately injure animals in order to reconfirm what we already know.

However OP seems insistent that ammonia is not harmful to fish, so I provided a study base that would isolate ammonia effects.
Yea I’m sorry go back and read please and thank you. I don’t think he ever actually inferred ammonia wasn’t harmful....
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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I appreciate everyone’s input here, including the reefers who only accept peer reviewed data as proof. Those are snake oil filters. I want the harshest skepticism of my claims, what’s leftover afterwards should be close to the truth. We’re in synch for sure, ammonia noncontrol is so harmful we won’t need a test kit to tell us of the condition. One tank picture will show it :)
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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Agreed don’t do this test Alenya with fish, do it with bottle bac and liquid ammonium chloride, look to see if levels above .02 ppm nh3 are ever sustained

my commentary regarding those who have already been doing this with fish and it works fine is a remark to the abilities of bottle bac, it is legit.
 
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For some reason they insist that bacteria processing ammonia before damaging fish and inverts means ammonia is not damaging.
So I posted a postulation earlier referring to an emergency tank. I’m asking your opinion here so answer as you wish. Do you think what I proposed to be dangerous for the fish in question?
 

Conovan

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As a noob I am perfectly happy I did a long fishless cycle as it gave me the opportunity to learn how to adjust my equiptment and learn a few things before I put a living creature in. And by the way people should stop underselling the smell of skimate to us poor freshwater scrubs moving over. That thick dark stuff smells alot like liquid death. I was cleaning the cup last night and my wife accused the dog of messing on the floor...she was in a different room.
 
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brandon429

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Conovan that’s prudent and safe and wise prep. You pulled out all those half rotten proteins from the water, it’s amazing to see and smell what non skimmed tanks process internally.


not all bottle bac were found to work as quickly on free ammonia in Dr Reef’s 90 page bottle bac study thread

Fritz was the speed winner. Biospira appears just about as strong per Ike’s skip cycle thread from post #1

I would appreciate seeing how slower bac brands like Dr Tim’s (ten days on the directions iirc) handles ammonium chloride fish-in cycle simulation testing, but we need a seneye to have a decent shot at accurate nh3 levels. Rare combo to find

people keep using dr Tim’s in fish- in cycles though, no losses I can find, so it still seems to at least become active before ammonia lethality sets in, which is fast for most higher animals.
 
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