Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.

[Bxr126]

Prove that lack of oxygen will harm the human body.....

You can drop a fish in a tank and it may survive. You can start with live rock or go with the bacteria in a bottle. its all personal choice. When I do my fishless cycle I supplement my tank with ammonia and test regularly. I don't care what brand (I've tried many) no bacteria in a bottle establishes immediately. The fastest I've personally seen a tank cycle (meaning there were no traces of ammonia or nitrite) was 2 weeks. So then to me he question becomes, how harmful is ammonia and/or nitrite? Also, one could add in the variables; How many and what size of fish? How fast does the fish waste break down into ammonia (flow, temperature, type of food)? What is the water volume?

My point of view on this is why even risk it. Since I have been in this hobby the most common advice I have received has been "be patient". When enough people with significant experience give me the same advice, I tend to believe them.

 

[brandon429]

It was done before two weeks, since you didn’t use seneye that was unapparent. Misreading for ammonia affected your take on how long a boosted cycle takes to complete. Factoring nitrite into a cycle might have also caused the delay, we don’t factor nitrite nor consider it nor take measures for it in updated cycling threads although it used to be important, it’s simply not thanks to chemistry details from Randys chem forum.


a boosted cycle using bottled bac didn’t take two weeks.

we have a way to prove whether or not fish- in cycles harm fish vs guessing: use liquid ammonia, a seneye or adjusted zero titration kit, a new tank, and bottle bac

see if nh3 is allowed to hit above hundredths ppm free nh3. If it does, then we know something without having to guess.

 

[tvan]

You might want to email ATM(the show tanked), they seem to dump thousands of fish with little to no cycle.

 

[Biglew11]

There are two forms of ammonia in our reef tanks nh3 (unionized free amonia) toxic and nh4+ (ionized ammonia) non toxic. You keep saying people using cheep test kits read ammonia that's isn't there. This is wrong, the test kit read total ammonia (nh3 and nh4+). Salinity ph and temperature determin how much is in it's free unionized state. The seney reads only unionized ammonia wich is why you'll read zero with seney and maybe .25 ppm with other kits. I had a legit ammonia spike 1ppm, (bad use of chemclean.) xenia looked like crap, 6 fish looked fine. Temp At 78, salinity 35ppt ph 8.2 that put free amonia at .0727 ppm calculated. So a .25 reading on an api.red sea or whatever isn't necessarily a false reading. You just need to understand what the test kit is showing you.
https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

Chart from seneye.

NH3 level	PPM (mg/L) From	PPM (mg/L) To
safe	0.001	0.020
alert	0.020	0.050
alarm	0.050	0.200
toxic	0.200	0.500
deadly	0.500+

 

[brandon429]

ive been reminded of that conversion yes agreed.

at no time is free ammonia holding in the tenths ppm in anyone’s reef for more than an hour, we have a twenty dollar PayPal bounty outstanding to drive searches for noncompliance threads.

Your tests will post a sustained reading longer than seneye will. Even with converted numbers.

your spike didn’t hold longer than a couple hours max, since your tank lived.



the masses who post stuck cycles and .5 for days need to be reminded of the conversion agreed, thankfully seneye does it for us so that when they post readings, we don’t have to know if it’s converted or not.

I can see how antibiotics might stress a biofilter, medication events accepted. It takes that to skew biofiltration.

notice how skeptics keep downplaying the effects of free ammonia from non seneye tests: we always hear how ammonia nh3 was surely there, but we never get the loss and death that must follow it. To match the test reading, we get to veer from the animals actually ever dying from the most damaging compound we could produce and fail to sustain. yours could have been an oxygen event, it’s more likely than nh3.


we get dead fish when we hold nh3 in the tenths ppm, live fish means we didn’t hold

 

[brandon429]

My problem with non seneye kits is the nh3 numbers you guys report during problems we can link right now in perfectly running matured tanks using those kits
And those reefers are about to react by buying more bottled bac unless we catch em and redirect


I debate most of the converted readings too. The bounty exists to try and find a seneye that reports tenths ppm, the number thrown around commonly and *used to justify massive extra bottle bac purchases*

we want to save people's money too, by getting cycling correct and updated.

 

[Cell]

Absent an in lab, controlled experiment for the purposes of getting published, then crowdsourcing is a legit tool.

 

[Dom]

You might want to email ATM(the show tanked), they seem to dump thousands of fish with little to no cycle.

Yes, but what they don't tell you about is the health of the tank after two weeks... four weeks...

In my view, those guys aren't reef keepers. They are reality show stars. It's about viewership and not about the success of the tank.

 

[brandon429]

Cell I agree, that's where hints and clues and tie-ins to tank pics comes from, its free mining data with a lot of interference

peer reviewed data isnt rapid, or sustained 25 straight years on file as easy without buying $ into full page abstract so you can read the whole thing lol scholar. peer reviewed data is very, very very low interference with a tight scope, total value there as well can't discount.

post patterns over decades are free gold.

something isn't right w the current cycling paradigm. theres too much variation in nh3 control stated, and the animal kingdom doesnt allow that, we adapted to die from it

major themes stated by cycling sages are now in total conflict with updated measurement tools, accountability time for stuck-cycle proponents.

when people rush a cycle I like to see that done with corals lol, not fish




my opinion list of filter bacteria falsehoods comes from conflicts in post patterns, its like aiming two opposing forces together and get to watch what happens. RtR is the ONLY forum on earth that would have allowed this thread and in that we have prevented excess bottle bac sales in at least a thousand cases, thats been fun.

 

[Bxr126]

It was done before two weeks, since you didn’t use seneye that was unapparent. Misreading for ammonia affected your take on how long a boosted cycle takes to complete. Factoring nitrite into a cycle might have also caused the delay, we don’t factor nitrite nor consider it nor take measures for it in updated cycling threads although it used to be important, it’s simply not thanks to chemistry details from Randys chem forum.


a boosted cycle using bottled bac didn’t take two weeks.

we have a way to prove whether or not fish- in cycles harm fish vs guessing: use liquid ammonia, a seneye or adjusted zero titration kit, a new tank, and bottle bac

see if nh3 is allowed to hit above hundredths ppm free nh3. If it does, then we know something without having to guess.

No it was not done. Not to my standard. I used a couple ammonia test kits and have cycled several tanks.

Unless your seneye is calibrated to a proven standard it is no more reliable.

 

[brandon429]

but if we sample a hundred seneye threads they never, ever match the non seneye ones for reported free ammonia, thats enough clue hunting for me to build this thread as well and aim skeptics with good measuring tools right where the work is needed-proving what happens during a fish-in + bottle bac cycle.
at least one of one hundred seneye logs online will show the sustained tenths condition in a legit-attempt cycling tank, if that condition is actually possible.

we are commonly told that it is, common as daylight

my aim is to cause doubt in api and red sea and even salifert readings that appeared stuck, by pointing out our newest testers that also read what oceanic conversion rates read, doesnt agree with 25 years of collected online posts about what bacteria/ammonia does in a reef tank. we have yet to see one loss posted from a fish in cycle, one fish darting about or labored breathing, bottle bac has this in the bag. we have eight examples of where and when fish can be added, without burning, and the specific start dates where they can begin as a non-stuck cycled tank.


when you dont believe seneye, and I dont believe red sea, we're at a stand still/ Ill take a perfectly running reef with happy anemones and happy fish as proof of no ammonia burning until we get better ammonia testers in 2035

*disclosure
chemists i respect greatly also have not agreed seneye is the worlds ultimate cycle referee/ clues are all we have to assemble, the way that nh3 is never really symptomatic in reef tank pictures other than a picture of the slightly green vial reading. I have collected a few seneye misread threads (they veer from the constants the peers show) and they still didnt hit tenths, even in confirmed misreads by actual seneye corp who responded in the thread

 

[sas226]

Yes, but what they don't tell you about is the health of the tank after two weeks... four weeks...

In my view, those guys aren't reef keepers. They are reality show stars. It's about viewership and not about the success of the tank.

Oh they have real tank, tanks that are cared for properly etc. They just don't show those on the show. They would post their personal stuff on instagram for awhile and you could see that. I haven't checked their stuff in years so I don't know about now.

 

[tvan]

From the WSJ
How much does it cost to get a tank from tanked?
The more unusual the tank and its contents, the higher its price. They can start at about $5,000 for a 10-gallon tank and reach $1 million or more for a 5,000-gallon one or larger that has rare fish. And that doesn't include maintenance, which typically is done weekly and costs 50 cents to $1 a gallon every month.
Just say'n

 

[brandon429]

i would say that ability to control free ammonia and immediate death in a new saltwater tank precludes owning a ten million dollar business and tv show about installing fish tanks agreed. They didn’t luck into it for fifteen years.

disease issues and long term balance has nothing to do with initial fish burn, lack of ammonia control whatsoever. Controlling ammonia while dumping in fifteen tangs isn’t hard with bottle bac, matured biomedia down low and 1000+ gallons dilution. They’re a fitting example for this thread and in two seconds i can post a tanked thread where everyone says they burn fish, simply because they added fish right at the end of the build


lol that could be edit chops where they show up two weeks later and add the fish, we wouldn’t know. Or it could be instant added with no ammonia issues, we can do that in our sleep with today’s bacteria sourcing options

 

[Tamberav]

I don't understand why fish have to die or show visible stress... What if it's uncomfortable but not enough to stop eating or act funny? It's not like the fish can tell you.

I don't like being in a room with someone who is smoking. It is uncomfortable and an irritant but I still survive and keep eating and go about my day. That doesn't make the experience is pleasent though.

Ammonia seems like it would be an irritant to breath or to the eyes so I just wait till the cycle is done. It has nothing to do with whether I think a fish will die or not. Clownfish are hardy.

 

[brandon429]

but its equally fair not to assume they're even slightly affected. which is erring on the side that bottle bac work, in 2020, when we send cars to the sun on orbit and transporting water-loving bacteria around in bottles isn't a big breakthrough

all the various fish species, acting normally, across various tolerances

Ill vote not harmed still.

its such an impactful molecule... across the animal kingdom, no easy pass for me to claim it without zero symptoms, fish would react to any level other than what aeons of habituation has them adapted to


someone get me a vet doctor, we discuss nh3 impacts on animals they make a prediction here. Thats someone who'll know ld50 levels, and where to find em.

that above doesn't take into account that no mechanism exists for holding ammonia at any level, seneye that lets see it/

what we get is enough control, and they're not burnt, or not enough control and it compounds into free ammonia death in two days, the middle ground is the convenient place we don't have to wield accurate test data among sample sets of 100 respondents. we'll accept whatever they post, and if its above zero, burned fish for sure.

I want to know how many animals tolerate 2 days of kidney or nephridial failure and still feed, swim, flare for space, chase around etc (fish have that interesting demand of their environment, though their internals might be working they really only get to emit ammonia from gills if the surrounding area isn't backing it up, lethally. their insides are staunchly regulated by the outside, so the tank is in kidney failure mode if we lack sufficient bacteria, and or surface area)

reef fish, and reef tanks, dont get the default pass assumption that ammonia noncontrol wont kill them, it will.

nobody has posted a failed fish in cycle, or video of a clownfish acting bad during a cycle.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Just saving you lot 10 more pages of arguments

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Call me old school, back in the day we placed a deli shrimp in a tank to kick start the cycle. When tank reached 1.5-2 ppm ammonia we pulled it out and waited sometimes weeks to months for bacteria to colonize and drop ammonia and nitrites down to 0 to make tank safe for livestock. With recent...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

that thread factors largely in my cycle assessments.

I like how he proofed each cycle by changing out the water, testing whats only on surfaces.

thats how fast various bottle bac strains move from dosing to full attachment... which I call the updated definition of a completed cycle. its not about dragging things out weeks, but meeting deadlines for today's legit technology. of bacteria in water being transported around then dumped in more water

the cool part was making the pure strains and figuring out dormancy

and TETRA

however you're getting both marine and fresh, one bottle, wow

 

[attiland]

They have already done videos on this as well as other professionals. As they say in the video over 100 tanks cycled with bacteria in a bottle and never any fish lost.

I can only add one more to their results. Mine cycled with dr Tim’s + 2 fish. No issues I could observe. I have also tested the water every day and ammonia was not spiked once. The only way I could tell it is happening I could measure nitrate after a few days.
I have to add in freshwater in my close 40 years of practice I never lost a fish during new aquarium setup and this is the first time I have ever used any products for the setup.
Just one more thing to I would like to add. I Have used old filter materials from the previous life of my tank as freshwater. Although not all bacteria are the same many lives both in freshwater and saltwater so this may have contributed to the success.
As per BRSTV I admire their professionalism and I would blindly follow their advice

 

[Bxr126]

You guys realize no matter what you say this guy is dead set on his opinion. And opinion is all it is.

This thread is a complete waste of time.