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Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.

attiland

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When I started the cycle of my 125 I used Ace hardware ammonia and bottled bacteria.
I had a high ammonia level up until 3 weeks in. At which point it started dropping. I also had a ammonia alert badge for back up.
There's no way I would put any kind of sea life in a tank that had high ammonia levels. Once I was able to zero the ammonia I in less than 12 hours I felt comfortable adding the fish.

I had saltwater aquariums back in the 70-80's so yes I know all about the fish in cycle. My question is how many damsels died because of that?
Don’t get me wrong but If I am correct these days fish in cycle mean put bacteria in your tank in one way or the other.
if I tick in the water an expecting it to be drinkable next day I am wrong. But it is drinkable if I do the right thing and put in the right filter which in this case would be bacteria.
/before you ask I would never hesitate to drink from my freshwater tank but the saltwater one would be b*y salty/
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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Twitchy thats awesome I didnt think of that.


*the hobby would say: that will neutralize the ammonia and bac will starve




microbiology forum, hospital, lab at a giant beef processing plant, humbled by liquified bacteria, highly concerned about ability to keep dead, not alive

reefing forum: we control bac. If I dont give bacteria food pellets, or ammonium chloride, then its all dead. there's no way bottled bac can work to control ammonia, instantly, we have the red sea data to prove it. that the readings match pretty much all reefs running is irrel
 
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attiland

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This is a terrible, and probably borderline unethical experiment that no one should take on.

What we do know
1. Ammonia kills fish
2. Fish produce ammonia through waste
3. Without a sufficient bacteria population ammonia will build up in the water
4. At some point the ammonia will become toxic to fish. Now the exact point at which it is poisonous to fish may vary and could be up for debate

It is very easy to conclude that someone COULD add fish day one with some bottled bacteria, and with enough bacteria they could keep ammonia low enough for fish to survive. Now what exactly a "low enough" level of ammonia is, I don't know, and don't really care to find out.
You are contradicting yourself. Bacteria in the battle is the sufficient amount of bacteria for those 2 fish
 

attiland

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Seriously......

BRS has actually shown that dry cycled tanks using bottled bacteria are far less stable than new tanks establushed using live rock.

I don't get it. Reefers are too dumb to buy some LR, but will buy bottled bacteria. I also find it more than hypocritical we worry about low ammonia toxicity when we buy fish caught on a reef that are stunned with cyanide.
Can you link this? I want to see that video
 

laverda

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Considering how many die in tank cycling, I think it is pretty clear it in not good for fish. So many people consider their first fish sacrificial, it is a shame.

Prove it is not harmful! I don’t think you can.
 

Biglew11

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Considering how many die in tank cycling, I think it is pretty clear it in not good for fish. So many people consider their first fish sacrificial, it is a shame.

Prove it is not harmful! I don’t think you can.
in somewhat defense he is talking about adding fish + bacteria, which has already been proven to work forever.
 

Alex Sadowsky

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I’m so confused. What is the point of this thread??? It’s been proven over and over in this hobby that using bottled bacteria and adding livestock works. That is the actual written purpose for using Fritz TurboStart. I myself used Fritz TurboStart and ammonium chloride to artificially run my tank for a month. This allowed me to learn how to test and use my equipment without experimenting on a fish. But then again I don’t understand half the posts in this thread, so maybe I’m missing something.
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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someone above said fish die a lot in fish-in cycles


link that, its actually tricky to find failed ones. there are youtube videos, those are better, they show normal action vs all messed up action in fish used on day 1

if you find that one from fishlore, how you can eliminate bad acclimation

and what about the first fifty you had to sift through, which were ok...what does the landslide of data you are sifting through say about fish-in cycling harm, the collective big picture?
 
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ReefGeezer

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The argument can't be objectively proven without lots of effort. Probably more than I could muster.

I don't necessarily think cycling with fish is cruel or inhumane, but let me ask a different question... For a hobbyists, why cycle with fish that you probably won't want in your tank once it matures. It's not like you'd cycle with a Powder Blue Tang or Copperband Butterfly. Damsels and Clownfish are the normal fodder. In a lot of cases, these fish become problems when it comes time to add new, less aggressive fish to the tank.

Those fish simply provide ammonia/organic input. That's something that can be accomplished without the fish. Ammonium Chloride, and maybe a little flake food to provide sustained organic input needed, will work. It is controllable, you won't end up with fish in your tank you don't want, and it's faster. You can still use the miracle bottled bacteria if you see fit. At the very least, it will add a little of the needed organic input. Maybe it'll even make the cycle faster.
 

Alex Sadowsky

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someone above said fish die a lot in fish-in cycles
I think your use of the term fish-in cycle is a major point of confusion. Cycling a tank with a fish to produce ammonia to accelerate the cycle is dangerous to the fish. Fish do die, that’s why people are always back at PetSmart and Petco complaining their molly,glo-fish, whatever didn’t make it.
You’re talking about using bottled bacteria and adding fish immediately, this isn’t cycling, in this case the cycle is being skipped.
Your use of the term Fish-in is massively confusing.
 

Cell

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I've seen very few people on this forum talk about how they used bottle bac and consider the tank cycled. Most use bac and are still coming here wondering why ammonia is still 0.25 after several weeks wondering f they should add more bac.
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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agree to both stated points there Alex and Cell

Alex that's also the point most disagree with you and I, that it skips the cycle. The masses claim it burns fish, they act normal, while being harmed but not showing it. any species, any youtube vid, acting normally because bottle bac only partially skips the cycle, they'd claim.

in no way shape or form do 80% of the posters in this thread agree that bottle bac simply skips the cycle, which it does depending on strain

for the semantics crew- skipping the cycle here is defined: using bottle bac in suspension, to offset waste in solution, made by fish and collective respiration in the aquarium at the earliest possible stage. after a very brief period 1~8 days, the bacteria will adhere to all surfaces in the tank and become fully immune to any degree of water change.
 
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BullyBee

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In freshwater I have cycled using Seachem Stability and adding fish. all are fine to this day.

saltwater I’ll get back to you when I do it this fall
 
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brandon429

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why did you put a reef in that
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in order to not offend approximately 300 persons can you agree to pre-test the dosed system, which we expect to pass, for ammonia oxidation before adding fish? :)
doesnt have to be zero ammonia, just a tiny bit dosed up, proven to go back down a little, on any cheap tester. that motion is the proof you can fish away. and they wont be burned


and to save offenses on the other 400 readers who are fish-disease prevention conscious, would you consider not adding fish until after sufficient fallow prep and quarantine? they're less likely to die of harsh disease in 4 mos which is probably 70% of fallow-skipped fish setups in reefing, but not freshwater. I relay this info in all my cycling threads, marine fish loss is massive waste. bringing healthy fish home from the lfs and putting into a reef w kill them, not like freshwater where the seeming fittest transfer home just fine.
 
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brandon429

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#9 beat y'all to it again


When can he add fish? Done.

Are they being burned, well let's see I'll get us some pictures.
 
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