Orange shoulder dying in QT

[kenchilada]

I have an orange shoulder tang in QT. He’s breathing heavy and laying on the floor sideways.

He is in 1.5ppm copper power. Per recommendation, last night I dosed Prazipro, thinking the fish has flukes.

Tank is 20L, 78F, 1.024. Two Seachem Tidal 35s, Koralia powerhead pointed at surface and an air stone pumping plenty of air.

My kids are devastated, they really liked this one!! Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[kenchilada]

This is a pic from last night.

 

[kenchilada]

Would a freshwater dip help clear his gills or will that just kill him? Or I have some Rally Pro.

 

[kenchilada]

He's dead.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry to hear. With a moribund fish like this, there is something nothing to be done. My first thought was oxygen deprivation from the Prazipro, but you had good aeration. There is another thing I see with prazi: with a fish heavily infested with flukes, dosing with prazi (or giving a FW dip) causes all of the flukes to drop off at once. The flukes had all created tiny holes in the fish's skin, and when they drop off like that, the4 fish literally bleeds out and dies. One way to determine that is to look at the fish's gills right after death - if they are white or light pink, then that could be anemia from blood loss (all fish gills turn white over time after death though, so you needs to look at the fish within the first hour or so).

Are there any other fish in the QT with it?

Jay

 

[kenchilada]

Sorry to hear. With a moribund fish like this, there is something nothing to be done. My first thought was oxygen deprivation from the Prazipro, but you had good aeration. There is another thing I see with prazi: with a fish heavily infested with flukes, dosing with prazi (or giving a FW dip) causes all of the flukes to drop off at once. The flukes had all created tiny holes in the fish's skin, and when they drop off like that, the4 fish literally bleeds out and dies. One way to determine that is to look at the fish's gills right after death - if they are white or light pink, then that could be anemia from blood loss (all fish gills turn white over time after death though, so you needs to look at the fish within the first hour or so).

Are there any other fish in the QT with it?

Jay

There is a small sailfin tang and copperband in with it. I've seen them flash but not for several days. No labored breathing in either of these fish. Having problems getting the CBB to feed but they look fine otherwise.

That is an interesting theory about the bleeding out. I will know next time to inspect the gills. It is helpful to at least have some explanation as to what may have happened, so thank you very much for your reply.

Been in the hobby since the 90's and this is my first time attempting prophylactic quarantine. I am trying to decide if it is the responsible thing to do. I feel like I killed this fish somehow due to my inexperience. It seems more art than science and requires the ability to make fast, correct decisions.

 

[artieg1]

Three fish in a 20L is pushing capacity in my mind, particularly with that large orange shoulder. How confident are you that ammonia was not an issue? In my experience, the issues in QT are ammonia and oxygen. You really cannot set up a QT all at once and put fish in unless you take extraordinary steps to import biomedia, seed with bacteria, do water large and frequent water changes, etc. The reason most fish "do well" going straight into a DT is that there is an established healthy environment there that can be difficult to replicate in a QT setup. But the problem is that the parasites they carry also do well in the DT.

 

[kenchilada]

Three fish in a 20L is pushing capacity in my mind, particularly with that large orange shoulder. How confident are you that ammonia was not an issue? In my experience, the issues in QT are ammonia and oxygen. You really cannot set up a QT all at once and put fish in unless you take extraordinary steps to import biomedia, seed with bacteria, do water large and frequent water changes, etc. The reason most fish "do well" going straight into a DT is that there is an established healthy environment there that can be difficult to replicate in a QT setup. But the problem is that the parasites they carry also do well in the DT.

The orange shoulder was barely over 3".

I am 100% confident it was not ammonia. Both filters are filled with ceramic media. To cycle I dumped a double dose of Fritz Turbostart into the filter and let it soak 30 minutes before starting. Dosed tank to 2ppm ammonia chloride and ran that for two days before a 100% water change and adding fish. Seachem ammonia badges were yellow and Salifert ammonia was zero.

Oxygen likely had a role, but I think he had parasites of some kind in his gills. I think I killed him with the prazi. Maybe I should have freshwater dipped him a day before when I noticed him breathing heavier? Maybe I should have observed a few days first and did prazi before copper? But could I even discern gill flukes from velvet? Maybe it was the copper?

The worst part of this is, if the same scenario happens again, I don't know what the right thing to do is.

 

[Paradise._.Reef]

There is a small sailfin tang and copperband in with it. I've seen them flash but not for several days. No labored breathing in either of these fish. Having problems getting the CBB to feed but they look fine otherwise.

That is an interesting theory about the bleeding out. I will know next time to inspect the gills. It is helpful to at least have some explanation as to what may have happened, so thank you very much for your reply.

Been in the hobby since the 90's and this is my first time attempting prophylactic quarantine. I am trying to decide if it is the responsible thing to do. I feel like I killed this fish somehow due to my inexperience. It seems more art than science and requires the ability to make fast, correct decisions.

Don't beat yourself up about it....things happen, as unfortunate as it may seem, you seem to have done all you could.