PBT Flashing like crazy. Has been in QT for over 70 days. More below

ngoodermuth

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
5,234
Reaction score
12,207
Location
York, PA
I'm glad you took a look over this, I read that last night and ended up focused on the fact that he had already started hypo then forgot to ask for clarification
You are doing great here, I just want to make sure we’ve ruled everything else out.

To the OP... were these fish in QT because they are new, or something you’ve observed in the DT? You mentioned you are letting your DT run fallow, the backstory there might be helpful :)
 
Get Fish & Corals directly for the suppliers
OP
Grigs

Grigs

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
279
Reaction score
364
Location
NE KS
Just making sure we are covering all the bases here... how long were they in copper, at what level? Were they transferred to a second QT after, or still in the same one as the copper treatment? Water changes, new water dosed before it hits the tank?

I’m a little reluctant to settle on prazi-resistant flukes when there were none in the freshwater dip...
They were in 2.5ppm Copper Power for 14 days, transferred to clean dt while I sterilized and dried the 75g for 24 hrs, then moved back. All water changes had copper added to bucket prior to being added to tank. I suppose there may not have been flukes in the bucket because I had already been lowering salinity for over 24 hrs prior to my post and fresh water dip. This was following close inspection of PBT and others in QT for anything visible and 2 courses of Prazi. When he was still flashing 5 days after second Prazi I read about Prazi resistant flukes. There are a bunch of fine white particles on the tank bottom, almost like sand, but to be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely positivenif those are flaked off scales, bits of LRS that didn't get entirely consumed, or exploded fluke bits... lol...
 
OP
Grigs

Grigs

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
279
Reaction score
364
Location
NE KS
They were in 2.5ppm Copper Power for 14 days, transferred to clean dt while I sterilized and dried the 75g for 24 hrs, then moved back. All water changes had copper added to bucket prior to being added to tank. I suppose there may not have been flukes in the bucket because I had already been lowering salinity for over 24 hrs prior to my post and fresh water dip. This was following close inspection of PBT and others in QT for anything visible and 2 courses of Prazi. When he was still flashing 5 days after second Prazi I read about Prazi resistant flukes. There are a bunch of fine white particles on the tank bottom, almost like sand, but to be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely positivenif those are flaked off scales, bits of LRS that didn't get entirely consumed, or exploded fluke bits... lol...

They were in QT because the came down with ich in DT after I took a chance I knew I shouldn't have with a Mandarin that the wife had to have. I was so mad at myself... The mandarin died 4 days after being added to DT, and after a week of observation. I was struggling to keep him fed so added him. The tank was absolutely loaded with pods, so I know it didn't starve to death. It did become extremely lethargic, though. A few days later... BAMMM! Ich... And they've been in QT ever since
 

ngoodermuth

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
5,234
Reaction score
12,207
Location
York, PA
The clean DT wasn’t the DT that had ich right? Just making sure lol

What you’re describing sounds a bit like ich, if the fish have developed some resistance from the first bout and are in hypo... could be suppressed enough that you won’t see the typical “spots” but it could still be in the gills. Hypo isn’t 100% effective against all ich strains.

You are CERTAIN the DT that they were held in during sterilization was ich free? No chance of cross-contamination between tanks?

I was in a similar scenario (I actually have a thread here about it) and my first fallow period failed. I must have cross-contaminated without realizing it the first round and had to start all over. It was frustrating, but worth it in the end.

You can continue hypo long enough to rule-out flukes, but if they are still scratching afterwards I would definitely observe them a good while longer to make sure they aren’t still carrying ich.
 

MnFish1

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
7,092
Reaction score
7,954
These guys have been in QT since the end of March. Started with Freshwater dips and Copper. Lately I have noticed flashing and heavy breathing, so I dosed Prazi as no spots were visible, expecting flukes. I did both treatments of Prazi and he is still flashing. No signs of ich or velvet. The only visible damage he hasanywhere is where he has rubbed on the PVC in QT while flashing. The Melanurus in there with him has attempted to clean him, as well, focusing on his gills. I have lowered salinity, working on getting to 1.009. Presently at 1.012 while RODI makes up some more. Will his flashing get worse/more desperate as the Hypo begins to take effect? He is dashing about like never before, and just laid practically on his side in front of the Melanurus... Pretty confident of the diagnosis. The Purple Tang is beginning to flash now, too. Is this normal? The Chevron, wrasses, clowns, and anthia are acting perfectly normal. I imagine that the flashing could be due to irritation from the flukes bursting and/or letting go. Anyone experience this before? Freshwater dip reveals NO flukes in bucket after being in hypo in tank all day.
While this would be the last thing to consider ie consider disease first. Tangs also can flash when they have become neurotic. That said how long did you use the copper? Would it be that you didn’t treat long enough or a. Incorrect dosage? Sorry I see you answered some of that aleeady
 

miyags

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
1,432
Reaction score
514
Location
Erie PA
It seems,I read more and more threads with people having repeat trouble with ick when using copper power? or just extended prolonged trouble altogether.
 
OP
Grigs

Grigs

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
279
Reaction score
364
Location
NE KS
The clean DT wasn’t the DT that had ich right? Just making sure lol

What you’re describing sounds a bit like ich, if the fish have developed some resistance from the first bout and are in hypo... could be suppressed enough that you won’t see the typical “spots” but it could still be in the gills. Hypo isn’t 100% effective against all ich strains.

You are CERTAIN the DT that they were held in during sterilization was ich free? No chance of cross-contamination between tanks?

I was in a similar scenario (I actually have a thread here about it) and my first fallow period failed. I must have cross-contaminated without realizing it the first round and had to start all over. It was frustrating, but worth it in the end.

You can continue hypo long enough to rule-out flukes, but if they are still scratching afterwards I would definitely observe them a good while longer to make sure they aren’t still carrying ich.

Yeah, typo... They went from copper to a clean QT while the big one with copper was being sterilized : )

Will do. I am still seeing some flashing but much less severe. Will reassess at day 5. If need be will ramp it back up and do another 2 weeks of copper. Hate to do it to them if unnecessary, though
 
OP
Grigs

Grigs

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
279
Reaction score
364
Location
NE KS
While this would be the last thing to consider ie consider disease first. Tangs also can flash when they have become neurotic. That said how long did you use the copper? Would it be that you didn’t treat long enough or a. Incorrect dosage? Sorry I see you answered some of that aleeady

I was just having that conversation with the wife. Is it possible that he has just been in the 75 too long and he's ready to go home to his DT? Maybe. I did see him under the HOB return just before I went hypo waving his head around a bit, which made me feel fairly certain that I was dealing with gill issues, which I assumed to be flukes.

It is certainly possible that something got cross contaminated along the way. The tanks are in the same room. Probably 7 feet away from each other, but it would honestly be more likely that I was the conveyance than aerosol.

Will see how we look at day 5
 

Mjrenz

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
2,780
Reaction score
5,959
Location
King George, Virginia
When it's time to bring them out of hypo do it very slowly (like at least a week) and keep in mind that hypo can suppress symptoms of some diseases so you'll want to keep a close eye on things. If you want to take the hypo out to 30 days instead of 5 you can decrease the chances of encountering ich. 30 days of hypo will kill most strains of ich but not all
 

ngoodermuth

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
5,234
Reaction score
12,207
Location
York, PA
When it's time to bring them out of hypo do it very slowly (like at least a week) and keep in mind that hypo can suppress symptoms of some diseases so you'll want to keep a close eye on things. If you want to take the hypo out to 30 days instead of 5 you can decrease the chances of encountering ich. 30 days of hypo will kill most strains of ich but not all
+1 I wouldn’t treat them with copper again unless you have to, but I would definitely have a nice long observation period after to be sure. 3 weeks minimum. Just my opinion of course.
 

McPuff

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
424
Reaction score
364
Location
Plymouth, MI
Why not just do TTM to eliminate ich and then watch the fish to see if flukes may still be an issue? No chemical and you'll have an answer in 12 days. You're already doing a lot of water changes anyway...
 

MnFish1

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
7,092
Reaction score
7,954
I was just having that conversation with the wife. Is it possible that he has just been in the 75 too long and he's ready to go home to his DT? Maybe. I did see him under the HOB return just before I went hypo waving his head around a bit, which made me feel fairly certain that I was dealing with gill issues, which I assumed to be flukes.

It is certainly possible that something got cross contaminated along the way. The tanks are in the same room. Probably 7 feet away from each other, but it would honestly be more likely that I was the conveyance than aerosol.

Will see how we look at day 5

I actually found several references to flashing behavior (google 'flashing behavior in fish). Every article lists 'stress' in the differential diagnosis - stress caused by other inhabitants, low salinity, too small a tank, etc etc.

If you have treated this much - and there is no sign of disease - it may be you're dealing with 'stress' related rather than 'parasite related' problems. One way to tell would be to take out the copper, normalize the salinity - maybe switch up the PVC in the tank - and watch the fish. If it develops spots, etc - you have your answer - and treat appropriately. You may be causing more of a problem with the hypo salinity than just leaving the fish on its own?

Not the disease expert here - but it seems that you've treated CI adequately.
 

joec

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
618
Reaction score
386
I dealt with Prazi resistant flukes very recently

Two 12 hour baths a week apart with Fenbendazole (a dog dewormer) knocked them out, no symptoms now for 10 weeks after treatment. After each treatment put fish in sterile QT

It's very mild on fish. You need to finely crush the meds, they dont dissolve in water very well. I used a spoon and then let the powder soak in RODI water for a few days shaking it several times a day.

I think I'm going to use this method instead of Prazi in prophylactic quarantine going forward
 
Last edited:
OP
Grigs

Grigs

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
279
Reaction score
364
Location
NE KS
I actually found several references to flashing behavior (google 'flashing behavior in fish). Every article lists 'stress' in the differential diagnosis - stress caused by other inhabitants, low salinity, too small a tank, etc etc.

If you have treated this much - and there is no sign of disease - it may be you're dealing with 'stress' related rather than 'parasite related' problems. One way to tell would be to take out the copper, normalize the salinity - maybe switch up the PVC in the tank - and watch the fish. If it develops spots, etc - you have your answer - and treat appropriately. You may be causing more of a problem with the hypo salinity than just leaving the fish on its own?

Not the disease expert here - but it seems that you've treated CI adequately.

I get what you are saying and believe there really may be some merit to it. They have been out of copper and in 1.026 since mid April. Had he not been wagging his head under the HOB return and presenting himself to a wrasse I would be leaning that way...
 
OP
Grigs

Grigs

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
279
Reaction score
364
Location
NE KS
Why not just do TTM to eliminate ich and then watch the fish to see if flukes may still be an issue? No chemical and you'll have an answer in 12 days. You're already doing a lot of water changes anyway...
If still symptomatic after hypo I will likely do exactly that. I only have one 75g, so they will have to hang out in 2 20's for a day while it sterilizes, but I put them face to face next to each other and they congregate on opposite sides of the glass. The PT winds up alone while the PBT and Chevron basically cuddle. They hate the 20's but it's enough for 24-30 hrs once in a while...
 

Mjrenz

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
2,780
Reaction score
5,959
Location
King George, Virginia
I dealt with Prazi resistant flukes very recently

Two 12 hour baths a week apart with Fenbendazole (a dog dewormer) knocked them out, no symptoms now for 10 weeks after treatment. After each treatment put fish in sterile QT

It's very mild on fish. You need to finely crush the meds, they dont dissolve in water very well. I used a spoon and then let the powder soak in RODI water for a few days shaking it several times a day.

I think I'm going to use this method instead of Prazi in prophylactic quarantine going forward
Fenbendazole is a great medication but I'd be leery about using the dog version, there's a lot of ingredients they don't list and the concentration is less than the products meant for fish. Thomas labs makes fenbendazole for fish, one of their chemists advised me that many of the dog dewormers contain copper as one of the unlisted ingredients
 

MnFish1

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
7,092
Reaction score
7,954
I dealt with Prazi resistant flukes very recently

Two 12 hour baths a week apart with Fenbendazole (a dog dewormer) knocked them out, no symptoms now for 10 weeks after treatment. After each treatment put fish in sterile QT

It's very mild on fish. You need to finely crush the meds, they dont dissolve in water very well
Fenbendazole is a great medication but I'd be leery about using the dog version, there's a lot of ingredients they don't list and the concentration is less than the products meant for fish. Thomas labs makes fenbendazole for fish, one of their chemists advised me that many of the dog dewormers contain copper as one of the unlisted ingredients
agree - there is a fish safe version - just google it for aquaria - I used it on my discus aquarium - no problems.
 

ckalupa

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 10, 2018
Messages
402
Reaction score
376
Location
Mishawaka
Might this be a case where a bath of methylene blue may be helpful? Just thinking if he does not have the parasites anymore but is still suffering from gill damage? Evidenced by hanging around by the filter discharge. Thoughts?
 

Mjrenz

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 18, 2019
Messages
2,780
Reaction score
5,959
Location
King George, Virginia
Might this be a case where a bath of methylene blue may be helpful? Just thinking if he does not have the parasites anymore but is still suffering from gill damage? Evidenced by hanging around by the filter discharge. Thoughts?
I don't think it could hurt, it's helped me out a few times. What are your thoughts @ngoodermuth?
 
Corals.com

Have you ever been accused of talking to much about your tank?

  • Yes (tell us about it)

    Votes: 220 55.4%
  • No

    Votes: 177 44.6%

Online statistics

Members online
1,796
Guests online
3,969
Total visitors
5,765
GHL Advanced Technology
Zoanthids.com
Top