Phosphate removal capacities of various GFOs

[Key Largo]

Hi all. A friend of mine just got back ICP results which showed elevated levels of aluminum (185.00 ug/l) They suggested remediation. I suggested that GFO would work to remove/absorb the aluminum. (where the aluminum is from is a whole other question) The question then became how much GFO to use. He cannot use GFO indiscriminately as it will, of course affect his phosphate levels as well as Aluminum. Most of the calculators for phosphate removal via GFO only take into consideration tank size and the type/brand of media. The only calculator i found that takes into account how much media to use, based on current-to-desired phosphate levels, is the RowaPhos calculator. So that is a good starting point. My questions are (a) to use that particular calculator I would need a comparison of other GFO media (High capacity, regular etc.) to RowaPhos. (b) does anybody have an address to such a calculator for other brands of GFO? (maybe i should have led with that question, lol). Of course its possible that the amount of GFO used to remove or lower his aluminum will adversely lower his phosphate to undesired levels, but he could always add phosphate, I assume. Additionally (c) is there another aluminum removal method that would not have deleterious affects on other parameters?

Thanks

 

[dwest]

Hi all. A friend of mine just got back ICP results which showed elevated levels of aluminum (185.00 ug/l) They suggested remediation. I suggested that GFO would work to remove/absorb the aluminum. (where the aluminum is from is a whole other question) The question then became how much GFO to use. He cannot use GFO indiscriminately as it will, of course affect his phosphate levels as well as Aluminum. Most of the calculators for phosphate removal via GFO only take into consideration tank size and the type/brand of media. The only calculator i found that takes into account how much media to use, based on current-to-desired phosphate levels, is the RowaPhos calculator. So that is a good starting point. My questions are (a) to use that particular calculator I would need a comparison of other GFO media (High capacity, regular etc.) to RowaPhos. (b) does anybody have an address to such a calculator for other brands of GFO? (maybe i should have led with that question, lol). Of course its possible that the amount of GFO used to remove or lower his aluminum will adversely lower his phosphate to undesired levels, but he could always add phosphate, I assume. Additionally (c) is there another aluminum removal method that would not have deleterious affects on other parameters?

Thanks

Unless the aluminum levels in the tank are causing problems, I wouldn’t do anything based on the ICP. If they are using an aluminum based phosphate remover, I might consider removing that.

If you do use GFO (any brand), I would start with a small fraction (like 1/8) of the recommended amount and closely monitor phosphates to determine how much to use next time. The last thing you want is to remove too much phosphate.

Also, you may want to look at cuprisorb (or maybe metasorb?) to see if it removes aluminum.

Again, I personally would do nothing other than watch my corals.

 

[hbash]

Unless the aluminum levels in the tank are causing problems, I wouldn’t do anything based on the ICP. If they are using an aluminum based phosphate remover, I might consider removing that.

If you do use GFO (any brand), I would start with a small fraction (like 1/8) of the recommended amount and closely monitor phosphates to determine how much to use next time. The last thing you want is to remove too much phosphate.

Also, you may want to look at cuprisorb (or maybe metasorb?) to see if it removes aluminum.

Again, I personally would do nothing other than watch my corals.

I am the dude with AL in crazy town. My bubble tips have melted away, my zooanthids are melting and my Duncas are closed.

 

[Miami Reef]

I wasn’t aware that GFO removes aluminum?

What else does iron oxide hydroxide bind? Metals

These materials are known to bind a wide range of other compounds from water, including trace metals, arsenic, selenium,2 silicate, and organics. Metals such as manganese, cobalt, nickel, and zinc are known to bind to iron oxide hydroxide in simulated seawater solutions.4,5 It has also been claimed that the binding of copper and zinc by natural iron oxide hydroxide sediments exerts a powerful control on the concentration of copper and zinc in polluted rivers and estuaries.6 Although not studied in seawater, it has also been observed that phosphate binding by iron oxide hydroxide actually increases its binding of copper, cadmium, and nickel in freshwater.7

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Triton claims GFO binds aluminum, I think. It might, but its not entirely clear because it depends on the form of the aluminum. It won't bind aluminum oxide particles.

I've not seen much data on the binding capacity of different brands of GFO, and I would not assume that any have a different affinity for aluminum relative to phosphate.

I personally would remove any aluminum materials, then simply address it by ongoing water changes.

 

[JNalley]

I am the dude with AL in crazy town. My bubble tips have melted away, my zooanthids are melting and my Duncas are closed.

Not that I personally ascribe to this belief, but there are some reports that ceramic biomedia's from certain companies will leech aluminum into the tank. Have you removed those and performed a large water change to see if that could be the cause of your high aluminum?

 

[Key Largo]

My friend sent for the ICP test because, although his parameters are stable, he was have some mysterious issues with his fish, along with coral growth issues. Aluminum was the only thing that came back as being a concern. Research and advice has told him that those levels of aluminum should be addressed. Why do you feel otherwise?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My friend sent for the ICP test because, although his parameters are stable, he was have some mysterious issues with his fish, along with coral growth issues. Aluminum was the only thing that came back as being a concern. Research and advice has told him that those levels of aluminum should be addressed. Why do you feel otherwise?

ICP companies suggest addressing all sorts of things that are not real issues.

The historically known bellwether for aluminum issues are leather corals, and those issues kick in in my testing at about 500 ug/L of soluble aluminum. I've not heard of anyone attribute fish issues to aluminum, especially not at that level (180 ug/L)

This has more:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Aluminum In The Reef Aquarium

In this article I will give some details of aluminum in natural seawater, and will discuss the sparse literature on the toxicity of aluminum ions to marine organisms.

reefs.com

 

[Key Largo]

Not that I personally ascribe to this belief, but there are some reports that ceramic biomedia's from certain companies will leech aluminum into the tank. Have you removed those and performed a large water change to see if that could be the cause of your high aluminum?

He has a large amount of marine pure that he IS removing a bit at a time, and replacing with rock. But that is a 'just in case' effort I dont believe we have seen conclusive evidence that marine pure leeches aluminum, otherwise nobody would be using them. but he doesn't see any other factor for aluminum in his tank. Water changes also being addressed.

 

[JNalley]

He has a large amount of marine pure that he IS removing a bit at a time, and replacing with rock. But that is a 'just in case' effort I dont believe we have seen conclusive evidence that marine pure leeches aluminum, otherwise nobody would be using them. but he doesn't see any other factor for aluminum in his tank. Water changes also being addressed.

I agree, not enough conclusive evidence, which is why I said: "not that I personally ascribe to this belief" because I am on the fence about it myself. But, if other things have been tried, removing ceramic media and doing a water change seems relatively harmless and something that can happen right away, rather than trying to wait for GFO to *possibly* bind aluminum over the course of a few weeks/months.

 

[hbash]

ICP companies suggest addressing all sorts of things that are not real issues.

The historically known bellwether for aluminum issues are leather corals, and those issues kick in in my testing at about 500 ug/L of soluble aluminum. I've not heard of anyone attribute fish issues to aluminum, especially not at that level (180 ug/L)

This has more:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Aluminum In The Reef Aquarium

In this article I will give some details of aluminum in natural seawater, and will discuss the sparse literature on the toxicity of aluminum ions to marine organisms.

reefs.com

My fish seem okay, however my bubble tips, zooanthids and duncans not well and melting.

 

[hbash]

Triton claims GFO binds aluminum, I think. It might, but its not entirely clear because it depends on the form of the aluminum. It won't bind aluminum oxide particles.

I've not seen much data on the binding capacity of different brands of GFO, and I would not assume that any have a different affinity for aluminum relative to phosphate.

I personally would remove any aluminum materials, then simply address it by ongoing water changes.

Logic would dictate (for whatever that's worth-lol) that Triton would be referring to the form of AL that their test detects, or so I would think...

 

[hbash]

Triton claims GFO binds aluminum, I think. It might, but its not entirely clear because it depends on the form of the aluminum. It won't bind aluminum oxide particles.

I've not seen much data on the binding capacity of different brands of GFO, and I would not assume that any have a different affinity for aluminum relative to phosphate.

I personally would remove any aluminum materials, then simply address it by ongoing water changes.

The challenge with removing the ceramic media blocks is that the contain my bio filtration and so if I remove them I would expect my levels of Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate to spike. It was suggested at BRS that I add some Marco rocks in a filter bag, wait 2 weeks and pull a block. I have three large blocks and a gallon of their spheres.

 

[JNalley]

The challenge with removing the ceramic media blocks is that the contain my bio filtration and so if I remove them I would expect my levels of Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate to spike. It was suggested at BRS that I add some Marco rocks in a filter bag, wait 2 weeks and pull a block. I have three large blocks and a gallon of their spheres.

Can I see how much rock is in your tank? If it's not a completely minimalist scape, like 10 lbs in 100 gallons, it should be enough to sustain your fish population. I don't think I'd remove all 3 blocks and the entire gallon all at once, But certainly, you could remove the 3 blocks, leave the gallon, and see where you land provided there's already a decent amount of rock in the display.

 

[hbash]

Can I see how much rock is in your tank? If it's not a completely minimalist scape, like 10 lbs in 100 gallons, it should be enough to sustain your fish population. I don't think I'd remove all 3 blocks and the entire gallon all at once, But certainly, you could remove the 3 blocks, leave the gallon, and see where you land provided there's already a decent amount of rock in the display.

I used about 120 pounds of real reef rock with no sand. Also, the tank has 249 gallons of water with those rocks and media blocks.

 

[JNalley]

I used about 120 pounds of real reef rock with no sand. Also, the tank has 249 gallons of water with those rocks and media blocks.

Right on, so about 1/2lb:1 gallon. That's not an unreasonably low amount of rock. Personally, I would pull the 3 blocks. Wait two weeks and then pull the gallon of bio balls. You *can* replace with other live rock (personally the CaribSea Moani (*important* not the purple LifeRock)is the same exact thing as Marco, but comes in slightly cheaper per lb, and has spored bacteria on it) but I think the 1-2lbs:1 gallon rule is a gross overestimation, I've seen many many tanks thrive with far less surface area.

 

[Key Largo]

I agree, not enough conclusive evidence, which is why I said: "not that I personally ascribe to this belief" because I am on the fence about it myself. But, if other things have been tried, removing ceramic media and doing a water change seems relatively harmless and something that can happen right away, rather than trying to wait for GFO to *possibly* bind aluminum over the course of a few weeks/months.

Yes, I agree, waters changes to be of most immediate help. Dilution is the Solution. Unless the aluminium is somehow entering from top off/ water change, hmmm.

 

[hbash]

Right on, so about 1/2lb:1 gallon. That's not an unreasonably low amount of rock. Personally, I would pull the 3 blocks. Wait two weeks and then pull the gallon of bio balls. You *can* replace with other live rock (personally the CaribSea Moani (*important* not the purple LifeRock)is the same exact thing as Marco, but comes in slightly cheaper per lb, and has spored bacteria on it) but I think the 1-2lbs:1 gallon rule is a gross overestimation, I've seen many many tanks thrive with far less surface area.

I have already ordered the Marco rock, I could add some Dr.Tims One and Only ???? The rock and the new GFO reactor and BRS high capacity GFO should arrive tomorrow.

 

[JNalley]

I have already ordered the Marco rock, I could add some Dr.Tims One and Only ???? The rock and the new GFO reactor and BRS high capacity GFO should arrive tomorrow.

You could, but you already have the bacteria, it just needs to re-populate/multiply for a bit when you remove others. Adding more won't necessarily hurt though as long as you don't go overboard with it.

 

[hbash]

You could, but you already have the bacteria, it just needs to re-populate/multiply for a bit when you remove others. Adding more won't necessarily hurt though as long as you don't go overboard with it.

I thought that the majority of the "good" bacteria resides in the media bricks?