!!!!PHOSPHATE THAT IS EVIL:FEAR THAT IS REAL!!!?

[JMLewis]

Working on finishing up a write up on this very topic long overdue. I believe that the quality and purity of RO/DI is one of the most, if not the most overlooked essential elements to long term success. People chase numbers till there's no tomorrow scratching their heads when somethings not quite right, and throw every thing at the wall they can think of trying to solve it with little regard to the actual quality of the water they are using. Which I should add is often the heart of cause of their issues.

Definitely looking forward to that write up, I mainly think I'm fine as long as the water reads 0 TDS but I do feel like I'm always plagued by some mystery problem and always wonder if it has something to do with my water source.

Great write up on this too, I'm currently battling (no pun intended) too low of nutrients and having to dose po4 and no3...have more fish in the QT as we speak to hopefully help with more of a long term fix.

 

[CarolinaReefs]

Looking forward as well.

 

[CarolinaReefs]

I do feel like I'm always plagued by some mystery problem

I know what you mean. I started my SPS journey about a year ago. I have been doing this for quite a while but I just can't seem to get my conditions right for my SPS to do well. My tank is mature, 10 years running, and earlier this year I removed all of the sand and replaced it. I have had a few conversations with Adam even about nutrients and such. I have never been able to detect any NO3 or PO4 in my tank. I am presuming that was due to something using it like Cyano. I have ZERO algae in my tank. My rocks are clean, actually I have been told that they were too clean. Recently I switched salt and have been using aquaforest products (oh and added a couple more fish). Suddenly my cyano is receding and I am getting NO3 readings around 5 ppm and PO4 0.00 -.04. I have a very stable tank and it is fully automated except for water changes. All I can say, is there must be a bunch of rocket scientists on here. I see all of the beautiful SPS tanks and apparently it is rocket science.

 

[alanjeffery]

Speaking from a UK perspective i think the rise of Korallen zucht played a big part in instilling the notion that Ultra low phosphates were to aim for.
Brilliant marketing strategy to sell expensive little blue bottles

 

[Battlecorals]

Speaking from a UK perspective i think the rise of Korallen zucht played a big part in instilling the notion that Ultra low phosphates were to aim for.
Brilliant marketing strategy to sell expensive little blue bottles

I'm with you. Same thing goes for Rowa and the like. Convince people they have a problem them sell them the solution. Been saying this for years actually

 

[SPotter]

I'm with you. Same thing goes for Rowa and the like. Convince people they have a problem them sell them the solution. Been saying this for years actually

I was definitely guilty of this in the beginning. Spent lots of money on magic potions and only created more problems. I have guys ask me how much gfo they should use. My first question is what's there po4 level. More often than not the answer is zero or they don't know level. When I ask why they feel they need to use it they say it's because someone else is using it or they have an extra reactor they want to use.

 

[becon776]

i am currently dosing PO4 to lower NO3 below 20

 

[Battlecorals]

Just a soft chestnut dusting that seems relevant again here all of a sudden

 

[Koigula]

I have found a stable long term tank used with Kalk has few phosphate issues. I can test phosphate once or twice a month with no real action taken. I do find I only use iron suppliment for chaeto but should probaly just gradual increase feeding. I use ESV Transitional to help get Chaeto to grow better for now to lower nitrates a bit indirectly.

I do track testing though. I "keep" / monitor ratio of nitrates to Hanna checker phosphate in range of 50:1 to 200:1 and never have alage issues. Chaeto grows and wains in tank

 

[Deep]

@Hans-Werner has an interesting albeit ancedotal take on phosphates, He believes that higher the phosphates the better for corals.

 

[Koigula]

Has he written anything we can read on this? It is generally accepted the older and more mature a tank the more forgiving the actual phosphate level is water.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hans-Werner has an interesting albeit ancedotal take on phosphates, He believes that higher the phosphates the better for corals.

It is not so much anecdotal, in fact there are several scientific articles from the last years that emphasize the importance of phosphate for coral growth and wellbeing. Besides this we rund several systems and I have run several systems in the past with low phosphate at maybe 0.01 and 0.02 and now I run ten times this concentration.

I do not think the higher the better but I think that concentrations between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm phosphate are safe and concentrations up to at least 0.5 do little harm to corals.

Obviously there are different approaches to run a reef tank and if they have time to adapt to the conditions corals are quite adaptable.

In my opinion phosphate and iodine are key nutrients for coral growth. I think both are important building blocks of the organic matrices of nearly all coral skeletons, no matter whether gorgonians, SPS, LPS or even leather corals. Even coralline algae have chitin in their calcifying matrix that may bind iodine and they need some phosphate for good growth too.

After increasing phosphate and iodine concentrations corals may get brown temporarily. I recommend to have some patience and colors will come back when iron and nitrogen become the limiting nutrients for the zooxanthellae. In my opinion iron is of little use in corals and iron and nitrate are the nutrients algae and cyanobacteria benefit most.

In my opinion nitrate is more of an oxidizing agent than an important nutrient, more like peroxide than like ammonium. The oxidative stress induced in corals may make them more colorful but in my opinion this is a mode to run a tank that will not always work and may be a bit unstable and risky, but this is only my opinion since I never had any success with nitrate when phosphate was low. It may work better when phosphate is also higher, like I run it now.

 

[Koigula]

Thank you for input here. @Hans-Werner

Continuing on the importance of iodide, what would be the appropriate Tropic Marin solution to maintaining iodide levels with additive based on using 2-3 liters of sturated Kalk solution daily. I will go back to a 2 part solution as evaporation is maxing out but what is a good solution to keeping iodide stead until then (when using primarily Kalk)?

pH and growth are good as measure by alkalinity demand, coraline growth, and SPS growth with encrusting.

 

[Hans-Werner]

My preferred Tropic Marin solution for iodine is the A- Elements. They also contain fluoride, so they are less suitable to add directly to the Kalkwasser, they are originally designed for the sodium bicarbonate/carbonate solution.

The dosage can be adjusted to consumption with ICP analysis or by visually observing some indicator corals like Erythropodium. If they show a bad polyp opening it is likely iodine.

 

[TCoach]

@Battlecorals - Just read through this thread, and very interesting. When I first tested my reef, PO4 was 2.5ppm. Got it down to under .1ppm only to have it rise to .4ppm. My last test a couple of days ago was ~.2ppm. My NO3 is ~50ppm.

So, are you still in the school that you really don't monitor these parameters? Also, do you have more good threads/articles on your reef keeping practices? Obviously things are working for you. . Like you said, when I first had a reef ~20 years ago, I kept track of Alk and Ca and that was all. Reef was successful while I had it. But a move caused me to have to tear it down, so I can't speak to long term success.

Thanks.

 

[Battlecorals]

@Battlecorals - Just read through this thread, and very interesting. When I first tested my reef, PO4 was 2.5ppm. Got it down to under .1ppm only to have it rise to .4ppm. My last test a couple of days ago was ~.2ppm. My NO3 is ~50ppm.

So, are you still in the school that you really don't monitor these parameters? Also, do you have more good threads/articles on your reef keeping practices? Obviously things are working for you. . Like you said, when I first had a reef ~20 years ago, I kept track of Alk and Ca and that was all. Reef was successful while I had it. But a move caused me to have to tear it down, so I can't speak to long term success.

Thanks.

Hi there ,

hey thanks for resuscitating this old saw of a thread.

yeah not much is really changed with my methods in this regard. still like to see some measurable amount of nutrients, as opposed to zero. I have a back up system that's really low on fish, only a couple small fish and I have been dosing nitrate and feeding with benepets and reef roads on occasion for quite a while now and it has improved in coloration for sure.

The corals in that system were really pale. Some of the tissue was almost transparent( a few of you guys know what I mean). lol. but they were otherwise healthy. id say 99% of the of that lighter tissue in the system has darkened back up since I've been adding nutrients

in my forum here, there are a Bunch of "sticky" posts at the top of the page that discuss a lot of my personal thoughts and methods. Please don't hesitate to let me know if you got any further questions


EDIT: lol yikes. I guess it was me who actually resuscitated this thread. didn't realize that last post I responded to was a couple years old. jeez I need to do better. lol soon for the incredible lag/lapse there

 

[rtparty]

Hi there ,

hey thanks for resuscitating this old saw of a thread.

yeah not much is really changed with my methods in this regard. still like to see some measurable amount of nutrients, as opposed to zero. I have a back up system that's really low on fish, only a couple small fish and I have been dosing nitrate and feeding with benepets and reef roads on occasion for quite a while now and it has improved in coloration for sure.

The corals in that system were really pale. Some of the tissue was almost transparent( a few of you guys know what I mean). lol. but they were otherwise healthy. id say 99% of the of that lighter tissue in the system has darkened back up since I've been adding nutrients

in my forum here, there are a Bunch of "sticky" posts at the top of the page that discuss a lot of my personal thoughts and methods. Please don't hesitate to let me know if you got any further questions


EDIT: lol yikes. I guess it was me who actually resuscitated this thread. didn't realize that last post I responded to was a couple years old. jeez I need to do better. lol soon for the incredible lag/lapse there

As I started reading your post I asked myself if you saw the date from that post lol

Still a great bump though.

Not to change topic but I’d love to see more discussion on nitrate and how it’s very likely a pointless measurement. It should be called excessive ammonia. In the sense that high nitrates actually means too much ammonia and the “ammonia consumers” aren’t consuming it fast enough. Therefore, we have leftover nitrate and that most animals don’t prefer and may not even use. Zero nitrates can be a symptom of not enough ammonia and starving your consumers. Finding that balance is key.

Just a thought

 

[Big E]

Hi there ,

hey thanks for resuscitating this old saw of a thread.

yeah not much is really changed with my methods in this regard. still like to see some measurable amount of nutrients, as opposed to zero. I have a back up system that's really low on fish, only a couple small fish and I have been dosing nitrate and feeding with benepets and reef roads on occasion for quite a while now and it has improved in coloration for sure.

The corals in that system were really pale. Some of the tissue was almost transparent( a few of you guys know what I mean). lol. but they were otherwise healthy. id say 99% of the of that lighter tissue in the system has darkened back up since I've been adding nutrients

in my forum here, there are a Bunch of "sticky" posts at the top of the page that discuss a lot of my personal thoughts and methods. Please don't hesitate to let me know if you got any further questions


EDIT: lol yikes. I guess it was me who actually resuscitated this thread. didn't realize that last post I responded to was a couple years old. jeez I need to do better. lol soon for the incredible lag/lapse there

Low to no fish population is always a very tough go of it.........been there.

Most recently I went a good 4 months with no fish. Rroids can surely be your friend on keeping P04 up.

I don't concern myself with low nitrates as much.......I've always gotten better colors the lower they are.
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Adam, I'm curious about your comment on RO units in a previous post in this thread.

What's your protocal on changing the membranes? I think most people are doing the same for pre filters and DI resin per directions.

I have a suspicion that going by solids is not a good move. I usually go by when they get plugged up enough to cause low flow even with good readings. Maybe a one year or less change out of membranes would make more sense?

 

[Battlecorals]

Low to no fish population is always a very tough go of it.........been there.

Most recently I went a good 4 months with no fish. Rroids can surely be your friend on keeping P04 up.

I don't concern myself with low nitrates as much.......I've always gotten better colors the lower they are.
--------------------------------------
Adam, I'm curious about your comment on RO units in a previous post in this thread.

What's your protocal on changing the membranes? I think most people are doing the same for pre filters and DI resin per directions.

I have a suspicion that going by solids is not a good move. I usually go by when they get plugged up enough to cause low flow even with good readings. Maybe a one year or less change out of membranes would make more sense?

good question. I get all of 3 comfortable years out of my 400gpd membrane and thats with 500-600 tds from tap water, softened. Making about 75-100 gallons every day. I think the part of the key is pre filtration. And a proper waste ratio.

3:1 or 4:1 should get you at least a few years out of a decent membrane. Squash that ratio and your membrane will not last as long. if you think your TFC is clogging at all, then id definitely recommend exploring your waste ratio and adjusting if necessary. I have a boring but detailed mini write up for the process I use. Let me know if you'd like to read it.

also I change out my carbons more than I need to im sure but I feel better about it. doing so.

And I am a big fan of the Spectrapure zetta zorb pleated sediment filter.

 

[spsick]

good question. I get all of 3 comfortable years out of my 400gpd membrane and thats with 500-600 tds from tap water, softened. Making about 75-100 gallons every day. I think the part of the key is pre filtration. And a proper waste ratio.

3:1 or 4:1 should get you at least a few years out of a decent membrane. Squash that ratio and your membrane will not last as long. if you think your TFC is clogging at all, then id definitely recommend exploring your waste ratio and adjusting if necessary. I have a boring but detailed mini write up for the process I use. Let me know if you'd like to read it.

also I change out my carbons more than I need to im sure but I feel better about it. doing so.

And I am a big fan of the Spectrapure zetta zorb pleated sediment filter.

Adam, successful methods are NEVER boring!