Phosphates Out of Control - I need to Use GFO or some other Liquid PO remover

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

i dose lathanum chloride into the air in take of my skimmer
only been doing this a few weeks but initial results are promising
just need to fine tune the amount i dose

Can you describe how you technically accomplish that?

 

[Thales]

You need a 1-5 micron sock. Do not dose directly into skimmer.

10 micron sock clogs quickly enough, a 1-5 micron sock would clog so so fast.

Dosing into the skimmer is fine if you dilute and have a reasonable dosing rate. I don't see Lanth as a hammer to smack levels down, but more of a long term approach.The skimmer is a great place for this. The idea is to dose a little bit of lanth at a time so the reaction completes, the result of the reaction is lifted of the skimmer, and new water comes into the skimmer body to before the next dosing. This way, everything you want exported is exported by the skimmer. I have been dosing 30-50 ml lanth diluted in 3000-4000b ml di dosing at 50-80 ml/day for like 5 or 6 years now directly into the skimmer body via a peri pump that connects to rigid airline tubing run through a hole in the skimmer lid and right down the neck.

I did this to see if it works, and it does. It is so easy that I continue to do it though I am not particularly worried about phosphate levels.

October phosphate test .2-.3 ppm.

 

[Miami Reef]

10 micron sock clogs quickly enough, a 1-5 micron sock would clog so so fast.

Dosing into the skimmer is fine if you dilute and have a reasonable dosing rate. I don't see Lanth as a hammer to smack levels down, but more of a long term approach.The skimmer is a great place for this. The idea is to dose a little bit of lanth at a time so the reaction completes, the result of the reaction is lifted of the skimmer, and new water comes into the skimmer body to before the next dosing. This way, everything you want exported is exported by the skimmer. I have been dosing 30-50 ml lanth diluted in 3000-4000b ml di dosing at 50-80 ml/day for like 5 or 6 years now directly into the skimmer body via a peri pump that connects to rigid airline tubing run through a hole in the skimmer lid and right down the neck.

I did this to see if it works, and it does. It is so easy that I continue to do it though I am not particularly worried about phosphate levels.

October phosphate test .2-.3 ppm.

Beautiful tank

 

[jim_fitz]

im fortunate that my sump is in a remotre room so ive been able to disconnect the silencer and the LC is dosed simply by pushing the air line into tha air intake
i was looking to dose into the weir but i didnt want to buy another doser so had read you could dose to a skimmer. Phosphate removal is my current job in the UK and ive an appreciation on how important quick mixing is (though we dont dose LC) so the intake seemed the obvious location
the tank is about 3000L and i was manually dosing about 60ml LC over the weekend due to my job
i started with dosing 10 ml twice a day and Phosphate = 0, so then went to dosing 5 ml twice a day and that lead to 0.08 so last weekend i went to 7ml twice a day and will see what that leads to next weekend. I discussed this approach at my LFS here in the UK and they have given me a spare silencer to modify though im not quite sure yejust how

and can i say i truly feel honoured to be quoted by your goodself

Can you describe how you technically accomplish that?

 

[Ashish Patel]

Ok so if I wasn't confused before I am completely confused + terrified now!

 

[Ashish Patel]

I ordered Phosban-L. Seems to be 6X more concentrated than Phospate-E. Melev has a pretty good article about using it and how to mix it in with RODI and make a solution.

I am considering to use my Versa pump to dose this stuff directly into the filter sock. Dont really need to dose Kalk right now anyways but not sure if the LC will linger in the versa pump tubing. I just don't like the idea of having a dosing tube going into my skimmer body since I like to clean my skimmer every 3-4 days and rather not make it more a chore.

Either way I much rather dose daily by hand, What would be the limit to dose per day by hand? Is my PO too high and require way to much LC that I should just accept that I will need a dosing pump. If I dose correctly into a filter sock and particles are not released to the fish, why does it matter how much I dose if its in reason?

 

[Ashish Patel]

im fortunate that my sump is in a remotre room so ive been able to disconnect the silencer and the LC is dosed simply by pushing the air line into tha air intake
i was looking to dose into the weir but i didnt want to buy another doser so had read you could dose to a skimmer. Phosphate removal is my current job in the UK and ive an appreciation on how important quick mixing is (though we dont dose LC) so the intake seemed the obvious location
the tank is about 3000L and i was manually dosing about 60ml LC over the weekend due to my job
i started with dosing 10 ml twice a day and Phosphate = 0, so then went to dosing 5 ml twice a day and that lead to 0.08 so last weekend i went to 7ml twice a day and will see what that leads to next weekend. I discussed this approach at my LFS here in the UK and they have given me a spare silencer to modify though im not quite sure yejust how

and can i say i truly feel honoured to be quoted by your goodself

Wouldnt it be easier to just dose at the top of the skimmer? I read somewhere that dosing LC near the pumps will eventually cause harm to equipment. I can definately agree that its probably the best way to distribute the LC to the skimmer for quick mixing.

 

[Ashish Patel]

10 micron sock clogs quickly enough, a 1-5 micron sock would clog so so fast.

Dosing into the skimmer is fine if you dilute and have a reasonable dosing rate. I don't see Lanth as a hammer to smack levels down, but more of a long term approach.The skimmer is a great place for this. The idea is to dose a little bit of lanth at a time so the reaction completes, the result of the reaction is lifted of the skimmer, and new water comes into the skimmer body to before the next dosing. This way, everything you want exported is exported by the skimmer. I have been dosing 30-50 ml lanth diluted in 3000-4000b ml di dosing at 50-80 ml/day for like 5 or 6 years now directly into the skimmer body via a peri pump that connects to rigid airline tubing run through a hole in the skimmer lid and right down the neck.

I did this to see if it works, and it does. It is so easy that I continue to do it though I am not particularly worried about phosphate levels.

October phosphate test .2-.3 ppm.

Thanks for sharing, Before you starting dosing LC, how where you PO levels? Its nice to see someone not chase numbers, anyone else could easily say skrew it I am going to double the down and get it down to .10ppm. Are you even doing waterchanges?

 

[Thales]

Thanks for sharing, Before you starting dosing LC, how where you PO levels? Its nice to see someone not chase numbers, anyone else could easily say skrew it I am going to double the down and get it down to .10ppm. Are you even doing waterchanges?

In 2018 it was 1.6 ppm. Before that it was over 2.0 - from like 2013 to 2018. In 2020 in the same system, I raised Acropora from embryos through settlement and grow out (still going) with phosphate of .9ppm (that just got published into the lit yesterday and that makes me happy).
For the last 2 or 3 years or so I have been doing ato water changes daily of about 8 gallons a day on a total volume of about 450 gallons. After several months that seemed to start to lower levels.
This might be of interest to you, though my thinking about lanth has evolved considerably.

 

[Ashish Patel]

In 2018 it was 1.6 ppm. Before that it was over 2.0 - from like 2013 to 2018. In 2020 in the same system, I raised Acropora from embryos through settlement and grow out (still going) with phosphate of .9ppm (that just got published into the lit yesterday and that makes me happy).
For the last 2 or 3 years or so I have been doing ato water changes daily of about 8 gallons a day on a total volume of about 450 gallons. After several months that seemed to start to lower levels.
This might be of interest to you, though my thinking about lanth has evolved considerably.

Thanks Richard, I was actually looking for this once I seen who you where! Good stuff I prefer those levels you have but prefer to just maintain it with macro algae I can feed back to my fish, Kill two costs. New system like mine is just has an excess build up of PO from the old LR and only way for me to get a good understanding of it is to get lower and then test twice per week - which I generally don't test PO nearly enough but will have too. It got down to .18 last month and not sure what happened in 1 month. Only change really is I was wet skimming before and using different blend of frozen food, I did go a little heavy on the feeding once My PO where at .18PPM. Anyways, Thanks for the post!

 

[jim_fitz]

Wouldnt it be easier to just dose at the top of the skimmer? I read somewhere that dosing LC near the pumps will eventually cause harm to equipment. I can definately agree that its probably the best way to distribute the LC to the skimmer for quick mixing.

i think doing the way i have ensures greater contact time, i hadnt heard that about damaging pumps so will keep a close eye on it. For what its worth, i run 2 skimmers

 

[FishTruck]

Phosphate E is what I am using for my 1400 gallon system.

With trial and error I find that I dose 100 ml to drip it by .05. 200 ml for .1 etc.. I measure, figure the dose needed to hit .05 and dose it weekly. Week by week the dosing needs are going down.

I get a feeding bag from amazon. Dilute the phos E with about 500 ml RO water pour it into the bag... and drip it in to a filter sock. Make sure to use a graduated cylinder to measure the amount of Phos E - this needs to be precise.

I have done by drip it into a high flow 1 micron sock and a 200 micron sock - no precipitate either way at any dose from 100 ml to 200 ml. I am not really sure if the sock is necessary so long as it is getting dripped in - but people freak out about the possible precipitate - so I just use the sock.

Before I got the enteral bag... I was a little more cavalier.

I dosed 100 ml by pouring in a few oz. of the solution in boluses (before I bought the feeding bag) also no apparent problem.

Once... I dosed 250 ml by bolus (pushing my luck) into a filter sock over about 1 hour - and I did indeed get a white precipitate in the tank - but, it did not affect the fish or corals.

 

[FishTruck]

Here are my results for 1400 gallons. My system at one time was at .4 ppm. I used repeated doses of GFO to get it down to .2, but got tired of recharging the reactor over and over. When I used up my GFO... I decided to try the phos E. which is much easier to use in my experience.

"LC" is actually Phosphate E and the volume of undiluted product used each time. If I was a better person, I would measure the results consistently 24 hours after the dose. 10/1 was when I dosed 250 ml over one hour and got the precipitate.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Here are my results for 1400 gallons. My system at one time was at .4 ppm. I used repeated doses of GFO to get it down to .2, but got tired of recharging the reactor over and over. When I used up my GFO... I decided to try the phos E. which is much easier to use in my experience.

"LC" is actually Phosphate E and the volume of undiluted product used each time. If I was a better person, I would measure the results consistently 24 hours after the dose. 10/1 was when I dosed 250 ml over one hour and got the precipitate.

Thanks alot! The drip method you mentioned was something I had in my mind. I ordered LC from two little fishies and hoping I can get the PO under control by just siphoning detritus every other day, stopped overfeeding, and being more vigilent about keeping my skimmer and mechanical media cleaned twice per week.

The method you highlighted seems great, but can't one just dose this by hand as needed? Like I get its risky with the precipitation but if I am using a sock why does it matter. I have no issues dosing twice per day or as needed.
since you are doing a lot of trial and error, what is the cause of the your high PO?

 

[FishTruck]

Thanks alot! The drip method you mentioned was something I had in my mind. I ordered LC from two little fishies and hoping I can get the PO under control by just siphoning detritus every other day, stopped overfeeding, and being more vigilent about keeping my skimmer and mechanical media cleaned twice per week.

The method you highlighted seems great, but can't one just dose this by hand as needed? Like I get its risky with the precipitation but if I am using a sock why does it matter. I have no issues dosing twice per day or as needed.
since you are doing a lot of trial and error, what is the cause of the your high PO?

Ahh, if you just dump it into a sock, the lanthanum will go through the sock in liquid form - and the precipitation happens in the tank. The LE needs enough tank water to react and make the precipitate (in the sock) to get caught in the sock. This is why slow drip in a high flow sock is recommended. Check out MELEVs video on lanthanum.

Regarding my PO... I had the bright idea of leaving about 300 lbs live rock in my sump with inadequate circulation and stuff really built up. That was about a year ago when I noticed my nutrients going up and up, I cleaned it all out, but, the nutrients stayed up (especially phosphate). I got tons if detritus out of the system.. but is taking a long time to get the PO out of the rocks. I would guess the rocks can still take the PO up to .2 in about a week if untreated - but not .4. I am hoping that by New years I can keep it at .1 only dosing every two weeks. Maybe then, I can transition to using an algae scrubber or something else.

My fish aren't skinny, but, not exactly the brutes I see in other tanks. I don't see room to feed less.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Kind of difficult to see what my nitrates are since i am used to geting .05-2ppm range. Do you think this is 10ppm? I feel its probably closure to 20ppm.

PO are still off the chart but tank is looking great

 

[Ashish Patel]

I ordered LC and some 10 Micron socks. Was getting tired of getting that max out on Hanna so I decided to dilute 20% of my tank water with 80% RODI. I got reading of 74PPB (74X5=370PPB), Which gives me a PPM of a whooping

1.113 PPM.

I didn't even know PO could get this high! Does the 10 micron sock need any flow in it or can I just put it in my sump and have the dosing tube going into it? I do have a manifold so could run a slow flow through the sock but curious what others do since I doubt it would be effective without small amount of flow to move the LC out of the filter sock.

If I went with the skimmer route do ppl just drill a hole in the top of the collection cup lid or make a loop in one of the vents in the cover?

 

[mehaffydr]

You need flow but not to move LC out the idea is to catch the LC that binds with the Phosphate. You do need a constant water flow to move in new water that has phosphate in it. The sock traps the particles so that you can manually remove them by cleaning the sock

 

[Ashish Patel]

You need flow but not to move LC out the idea is to catch the LC that binds with the Phosphate. You do need a constant water flow to move in new water that has phosphate in it. The sock traps the particles so that you can manually remove them by cleaning the sock

OK, I probably will just use a 1/4" waterline from my manifold and run it through the sock.

 

[mehaffydr]

What size tank do you have? 1/4” seams a little small you may want more flow than what a 1/4” line can provide