Picked up a Emperor Angel... 2 days now cloudy eye, body turning white..

[DerekC]

Help...
Picked up a Emperor Angel 2 days ago. It has rot / nipped fin tail already but otherwise looks healthy.
The QT tank has full dosage of cuperamine.
This morning I noticed its body is fading / changing to white (from top to bottom), and one eye is cloudy.
It is still not eating.
Breathing is normal.
Bought 10 fish on the same day. 6 tiny 4 bigger. So far 2 tiny firefish are dead (stuck to powerhead - I can't tell how.) One clownfish died because of brook I believe.
Clown tang, huma huma, and powder brown are doing ok (but still not everyone eats). Powder brown did scratched at the beginning but after a 3 min freshwater dip (and I did see some tiny hair dandruff left in the water) , he stopped scratching.

Emperor body turning white could be because it is changing color. He is about 4-5 inches.
Or cuperamine is really bothering him....
One eye cloudy but not the other (yet). Infection?
Should I do a freshwater dip or what medication? Or wait?

 

[HotRocks]

Possibly velvet. Could be Brook as well.

When you say full dose of cupramine, how many gallons is your tank and how much cupramine did you dose?
Have you tested your copper level?

Do you have Metroplex on hand?

If this discoloration has occurred in the couple of days you have had the fish, something other than a change from juvenile to adult is happening.

 

[miyags]

Brook seems to be running ramped right now.Looks stressed out.Hows the ammonia?Can you see any flukes on the eye?Is that trigger nipping the tail fin?

 

[DerekC]

QT has been cured. I have been keeping it running with 2 damsels.
I did change 75% water before adding these 10 fish.
30 Gallon tank + 10 gallon sump. So 40 gallon. I put in 10 ml cuperamine.
I did not test copper level. 75% new water and 25% old water which was never dosed with cuperamine. Dosage should be correct, right?
I have metroplex.
One ocellaris clownfish did die because of brook. Rapid breathing, hiding, and slimy body. I did a 3 min fresh water dip, then 30 mins later 37% formaldehyde dip (one drop in 1/2 gallon container) and I watched it stop breathing.

 

[DerekC]

Brook seems to be running ramped right now.Looks stressed out.Hows the ammonia?Can you see any flukes on the eye?Is that trigger nipping the tail fin?

Tail fun was already like that when we got it.
Brook? Should I try freshwater dip first?
Fluke in the eye? I am not sure how to tell. It is cloudy for sure.
No ammonia. QT has been running.

 

[miyags]

A fresh water dip ,to see if any flukes come off the angel.Only if fish seems healthy.But with all those fish all at once,you could be facing multiple things.From your picture ,I can't see ich.

 

[DerekC]

dang it. It has ammonia. How could that be when it has been running for over a year and 2 damsels has been surviving...

Left is QT. Yellow is DT.

I am testing my newly mixed saltwater and will change 100% water.

I will do fresh water dip for emperor...

 

[HotRocks]

dang it. It has ammonia. How could that be when it has been running for over a year and 2 damsels has been surviving...

Left is QT. Yellow is DT.

I am testing my newly mixed saltwater and will change 100% water.

I will do fresh water dip for emperor...

If copper is present the ammonia test could have a false positive. If you want to monitor ammonia in QT with medications the best thing to use is a seachem ammonia badge.

 

[DerekC]

Haha. I just did a 97% water change and I am wiping my sweat...
Seachem ammmonia badge - I used then before. Never worked. I will have to buy.
I thought the bacteria could not catch up with the sudden bioload change.
Oh well, good exercise. Now and I adding cuperamine back (9 ml for ~38 gallon) and put the fish back except emperor which I will do a 3 min fw dip and take pics of the eye while it is on the table.
BRB...

 

[DerekC]

Ok. done with water change and 3 min fw dip for emperor.
It is not any better. Now it is in QT and struggling to stay upright. I think I will lose it.

Here is the pic of the eye and it in dipping:

Nothing in the RO water after dipping.

I also did ammonia test before and 15 mins after adding cupramine in QT.
If cupramine was the cause of high ammonia, it is not doing it now (or maybe 15 mins is not enough.)
I will test ammonia again tomorrow morning.

Anyway, for now, no ammonia in QT. Hope it would help Emperor if he stays with me.

Or should I take it out to do medication for velvet or anything?
Or more observation?

 

[DerekC]

Rapid breathing now... Sigh.

 

[DerekC]

So, picked up 10 fish:
2 nemo
2 firefish
1 emperor
1 clown tang
1 huma huma
1 powder brown
1 dottyback
1 cleaner

48 hrs later, I have left:
1 clown tang
1 huma huma
1 powder brown
1 dotty back (will die soon)

 

[HotRocks]

I really think you are dealing with velvet based on this. I know you put them in copper but the gill damage may have been already done.

If you did have ammonia spike it could have finished them off the rest of the way.

I'm sorry you are dealing with this

 

[DerekC]

If velvet, should they be dead while in the bag? Maybe just one of them is a carrier but doesn't show symptom? And it spread to all fish when I put all into QT? I dosed cupramine before putting them in. That should have controlled the spreading?

Or it was my QT setup or acclimation? (I did drip acclimation before. Now I do float acclimation trying to match up temp and salinity.)

This LFS I bought from has 50% discount on certain day of the month and they get them from wholesaler without even opening the bags. I paid $35 for the 5" emperor. $10 each ocellaris clown, $5 each for the firefish, $25 for powder brown, $25 for clown tang, and $15 for huma..... And it seems every time I lose 50% of the fish. If I go to another LFS and pay full retail price, I still lose 20% of the fish. So, I am still ahead.

How do wholesalers keep their fish alive in bag? Malachite Green or some medication? How LFS keep their fish alive? Do they usually have holding tanks in the back that we don't usually see? Percentage of fish they get in and out the door?

 

[DerekC]

My kids think I am a fish killer and my wife says I am wasting my time and money and I am about to be forced to get out of this hobby.
I have been trying to find an explanation to prove otherwise.
HERE is what a wise man rockskimmerflow once said:
"Now, as to the rate of survival of marine fish here's the cold hard truth on my end of the business: Wholesalers lose a ton, won't even try to estimate what the actual number is but it's a lot. Once a fish is on my end I can say for certain my losses are in the 25 to 30 percent range even with as gentle and effective of a quarantine procedure as I can muster. That being said, once a fully quarantined fish is placed into a customer aquarium I have a greater than 95 percent success rate. "

I am not buying from a GOOD LFS but I am buying them cheap still in bag from wholesaler so I am doing their job filtering the 25 to 30 percent dying fish. Or if I want to show my kid I am not a fish killer, I should pay full price from a "good" LFS to show lower fatality?

I searched "survival rate" but I could not get a conclusion. What is your survival rate buying from your LFS? Do you buy one or two or ten or more at a time? QTing too many fish together does make things more complicated, doesn't it.

 

[Gmj4409]

I’d say close to 90% but there was a huge learning curve on my side. I’ve spent the last 2 years watching/reading the majority of the posts in the Disease forum. I’ve been helped out a lot through that period by the all the usual informed givers ( I won’t try to list them all but lead by Humblefish).

I also suffered the terrible losses (despite almost 20 years of successful reefing) that many have experienced and felt ready to quit. I believe it’s a learning and acceptance of “it just takes one bad fish”.

Try just one or two simple fish and follow the qt guidance completely.