Please, help me to figure out what went wrong in my SPS tank

[atp0726]

This thread is getting long and I didnt have time to read through it entirely but, I thought I would add my 2 cents.

First it seams you are adding cal/alk as you test for them and thus causing these to constantly fluctuate. You should get to the point where these barely fluctuate with at least daily dosing and if you have a controller hourly if possible. I have had great luck with the BRS Cal/Alk dosing products. Try the easy premeasured portions first and then you can get fancy with the more complicated bulk supplements down the road. I have never used Kalkwasser and from what I have read in a strictly SPS tank you will have to add supplement eventually.


Second, why are your Radion's only on 30-40%? What is your schedule? I have a radion and i have learned through trial and error how to use the lights (still learning),IME they are very different than halides or T-5s and you cant apply the same guidlines.

 

[atp0726]

Sorry, read through a few more posts. Why are you vortechs set only at 40%? Granted they are 60s and I have only owned 40s, I would play around with all the different modes until you find one were all polyps are at least gently moving in the current. I like the Ecosmart Tidal Swell Mode currently the best for my SPS. I would crank those babies up!

Lastly, if you want to own Acro's I had always been told that the tank need a year to mature. If it hasnt been that long be patient and know you may need to let the tank mature.

BTW...If you dont have a controller get one! If anything its piece of mind and you know exactly what is going on with you tank anywhere you go.

 

[allabarton]

why are your Radion's only on 30-40%? What is your schedule? I have a radion and i have learned through trial and error how to use the lights (still learning),IME they are very different than halides or T-5s and you cant apply the same guidlines.

atp0726, thank you for your reply. 2 months ago I installed TIR lenses and was afraid to burn my corals. As of today my schedule is very simple. I basically altered 20K by increasing light blues to 100% and lowering whites to 60%. The combine color intensity I lowered to 55%. So if you look at the graph my highest intensity is about 35%. No I am thinking it was not enough light since my supposed-to-be-baby-blue Milli looked dark purplish blue. However I don't want to do changes to the lights just yet.

As for MP60s: I turn it up and down, down and up. MP60s are pretty powerful. I am running one on Purple (I forgot what mode it's) and the other one following the main one (so it's Orange). I'll try Tidal Swell Mode.

I have GHL Profilux controller. GHL doser unit (for Alk, Ca, Mg) is on the way. I don't like Kalkwasser. I dose it via ATO that is run by the controller with Optical Level Probe. The problem is that the weather in Houston changes over night so does the tank water evaporation.

 

[allabarton]

This thread is getting long and I didnt have time to read through it entirely but

I know I know, sorry, I like to talk. :bigsmile:

:tape:

 

[Zack]

Why would you have to wait a year!? If your tank is cycled and processing ammonia, what is the difference between two months and a year? My new tank finished its cycle at tje end of september so its not even 4 months old and i have only sps in my tank and they are thriving. Ive hear people say things like that before but never understood why.

 

[alisa]

I had that happen one...I knew something was not right so i took some tank water to lfs and it read 1.028...I freaked out started adding ro water and removing tank water slowly for 3 days..lesson number 255 learned lol. I will never use regular old refractor again..

 

[robby2782]

A year is pointless.

 

[atp0726]

atp0726, thank you for your reply. 2 months ago I installed TIR lenses and was afraid to burn my corals. As of today my schedule is very simple. I basically altered 20K by increasing light blues to 100% and lowering whites to 60%. The combine color intensity I lowered to 55%. So if you look at the graph my highest intensity is about 35%. No I am thinking it was not enough light since my supposed-to-be-baby-blue Milli looked dark purplish blue. However I don't want to do changes to the lights just yet.

As for MP60s: I turn it up and down, down and up. MP60s are pretty powerful. I am running one on Purple (I forgot what mode it's) and the other one following the main one (so it's Orange). I'll try Tidal Swell Mode.

I have GHL Profilux controller. GHL doser unit (for Alk, Ca, Mg) is on the way. I don't like Kalkwasser. I dose it via ATO that is run by the controller with Optical Level Probe. The problem is that the weather in Houston changes over night so does the tank water evaporation.

You are on the right track with the Radions. I would run a 12 hour spectrum ramping up to 20K over the course of 1 hour in the morning and then back down in the evening. Leave the intensity where it is now and increase it by 5% every week until you are up to 75% - 80%. I have my Radion on this same schedule and everything colored nicely with the increase in the blue Leds and mine are now at 90% with the TIR lenses. I have SPS less than 1ft under the light and they are fine with this schedule. One thing I have learned with the Radions is if you want to good growth increase the Cool White and if you want color decrease the Cool White.

Have you tried Ecosmart Live? They have some programs on there you can also modify and they now have a moon light feature that is pretty cool.

Dosing via ATO will definately cause some swings. I think once you have the controller set up and you can keep things stable you will see a big improvement.

I hope the "Acros need a year to mature statement doesnt de-rail your thread and make it even longer LOL! Again, this is just what I have read on some of the other SPS forums and I dont have any experience to back it up. I added non Acro SPS to my tank at first and actually waited about a year before adding any Acropora so I cant speak from experience.

 

[allabarton]

Jumping back to middle-end of November when all started to happen. Scolymia did not look happy, SPS were getting very pale and my first SPS, Blue Tenuis, that almost doubled in size just in a few months started to pill its tissue off. And then one after another SPS started to RTN/STN. I started checking all the parameters regularly. Analyzing what I did differently starting about mid-end of November. Naturally I started looking for some answers on forums. First it was a bad bucket of salt. It turned out that Alk of freshly mixed saltwater was around 5 dKH. The first thought: Alk swings. But if I do only 10% WC at the time it should not be of a much difference in Alk, should it be? However, I did started adjusting Alk by dosing Baking Soda and adding a little bit more Kalkwasser to ATO. But my Alk was always staying in 7.5-8.4 dKH ranged (measured with Hanna using the same reagent). At around the same time I had a major Cyano outbreak. It could be from overfeeding (I was feeding my fish 2-3 times frozen food). Even though I have only 7 fish in my 180 g with a ATB 1050A skimmer rated for 480 g. Also it could've been from Tropic Martin Bio Actif Salt since it has organic carbon. Also I had patches of GHA here and there. And that could be just my BRS Pukani leaching phosphates. So I decided I had to get rid of these nasty thingys. I started changing GFO HC more often increasing the dosage. But never went more than recommended. I stopped feeding Oyster Feast to my corals and reducing fish feedings. My poor animals. One day I woke up: Cyano is gone, GHA is almost gone. My rock is white and clean again. Unfortunately a few of my SPSs (luckily just frags and mini colonies) were gone as well. I keep reading. GFO problems, not enough light, not enough nutrients or/and phosphates..... My Nitrates (Red Sea test) and phosphate (Hanna using different reagents) were 0. 1. So first I started changing Salt 10% with weekly WC (never missed once). 2. I started checking and adjusting Alk of freshly made saltwater before WC. And my Alk've been stable the last 3 weeks. 3. I re-calibrated my refractometer. It was a little of. I adjusted salinity. 4. I took my GFO offline. 5. I started feeding Oyster Feast to my corals and dosing Amino Acids. 6. I turned Radions up 5% one week and then 5% next week. 7. Now I check and double check parameters. Especially if I have some off and need to adjust them. It took almost a week with GFO off and increased feedings plus Amino Acids for phosphate to go from 0 to 0.02 ppm. Nitrate is still 0. The corals started to look better and better with every day. The brown once started to color up, the other once with color became vibrant. SPS with STN stopped loosing tissue. However, I still have to find a way to keep phosphate around 0.03 ppm and Nitrate 0. I want to get more fish and feed them well. So I decided to use GFO when needed. I turned GFO reactor for a few hours. To my surprise 24 hours later SPS corals that stopped STN started to loose their tissue. The once that were looking great got a little pale on the tips and browned at the base. The tips of my Green with Purple Tips Hammer became pale. So it throw me back again. Not as bad though. So as for now I am done with GFO. And leaning toward vinegar dosing. Bio-Pellets sounds great but I cannot face another Cyano outbreak. And for now I have to live with patches of GHA because I am not starving my corals and fish ever again.

 

[allabarton]

Lastly, if you want to own Acro's I had always been told that the tank need a year to mature.

Now I agree with you on a year maturity. But not the tank's my maturity. I needed to mature at least a year in reef keeping.

 

[psionicdragon]

Two Suggestions from reading this thread:

1) Get a Milwaukee Salinity Tester. It is great and works pretty well. I had refractometers and pinpoint salinity meters give me false reading which lead to demise of some really nice SPS
2) Instant Ocean salt. It is a very base salt that you can adjust yourself. I have used this for over 14 years and continue to since I am not the greatest at keeping my parameter stable especially with equipment failures.

 

[allabarton]

Two Suggestions from reading this thread:

1) Get a Milwaukee Salinity Tester. It is great and works pretty well. I had refractometers and pinpoint salinity meters give me false reading which lead to demise of some really nice SPS
2) Instant Ocean salt. It is a very base salt that you can adjust yourself. I have used this for over 14 years and continue to since I am not the greatest at keeping my meter stable especially with equipment failures.

Thank you, psionicdragon.

I am going to get a Milwaukee Salinity Tester for sure.

I'll stick with Aquavitro Salinity at least for now since I just switched from Tropic Marine Bio Actiff.

 

[fragmatic]

This:
From your posting, you will figure it all out and have your dream tank!

It is a constant learn. I am on a 6 month old rebuild. I went without for a few years. LOL, it is worse that starting over. We do so much different and better now. I am on a fast learning curve. Reason for me posting?... I am learning from your willingness to post and ask. We will never stop learning in this hobby.

You and I have a common problem, we both want to make it happen and don't want to wait for it to happen. You and I forget the tank is not a sports car, it is a huge ship that takes a while to respond, maybe even weeks. We tend to make changes before the last change we made has had a chance to take full effect. So we are are changing the changes and not correcting the real problem. This means we are normal! I have thought about wearing hand cuffs after I finish feeding and dosing my tank. But, I'm learning. I think!

I now dose and feed exactly like my notes say, some doses even days the others on odd days. Steady does it. AND guess what my tank says thank you. But, I'm still not happy with my zoa performance skills.

Thank you!

 

[allabarton]

Here is where I am today.

1. After talking to EcoTech support about my Radions set up I realized I was running my lights way to low. At 35% whole intensity for over 2 months when it should be around 85-90% even with TIR lenses considering the depth of my tank 30". That explaines why my Northern Lights Granulosa thrives and has great color and some deep water SPS still doing great. Now I have EcoSmart Live program with acclimation my corals to higher intensity.
2. After I started fighting Cyano an stopped feeding and used to much GFO (even though it was a recommended dosage by BRS). But for my starving corals it was a death sentence. I turned GFO off. I feed corals and fish moderately. I dose Reef Energy A & B about 10 ml of each about 5-6 times a week. WC 10% weekly and skimming. I put less of ROX 0.8 Activated Carbon in a reactor. Might run it only when needed since my water stays clear.
3. I need to add more fish for more bio-load thus more Nitrate and more nutrients cor my starving corals. I have only 7 fish in 180g + 30g sump.
4. My parameters are stable now. I switched salt mix and adjusting Alk, Ca and Mg of freshly maid saltwater as needed.
Alk 146ppm/8.2dKH (Hanna and Red Sea)
Ca 460 ppm (Hanna and Red Sea)
Mg 1400 ppm (2 Red Sea tests)
Phosphate 0.05 ppm (Hanna)
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.05 ppb (Hanna)
Nitrate 0.75 ppm (Red Sea)
Salinity 1.0265
Ph 8.1-8.35 (GHL Prodilux Ph probe)
5. I am adding Poly Filter to see if anything comes out. I doubt it since some if my corals still doing ok.

Anything else? I don't know. There is nothing else I can but watch.

 

[MBG75]

Lots of suggestion in this thread. All I can say is don't make too many changes at once.

As others have said it looks like the coral damage is due to ALK swing (RTN/STN) and ALK burn (tip burn). Effects from the swing will still take place weeks after the initial swing.

A dosing pump or cal reactor is really needed for stability.
Key is to keep it stable and don't change things.

 

[Me z]

Here is where I am today.

1. After talking to EcoTech support about my Radions set up I realized I was running my lights way to low. At 35% whole intensity for over 2 months when it should be around 85-90% even with TIR lenses considering the depth of my tank 30". That explaines why my Northern Lights Granulosa thrives and has great color and some deep water SPS still doing great. Now I have EcoSmart Live program with acclimation my corals to higher intensity.

This was what I was going to say I am surprised nobody caught it from the original post. Too little light will brown acros quick and eventually cause slow tissue loss. I run radions as well and I run mine at around 75% with the tir lenses and I am still slowly bringing it up. If you see your acros begin to lighten up when you increase the intensity back off a little bit and watch. If they continue to lighten up back off some more. When they finally seem to be holding color begin slowly ramping up the leds. It has taken me over four months to adjust my tank to my current led lighting intensity and some stuff still doesnt like it much. Just remember when a problem happens its usually one of three things. 1. chemistry, 2. lighting, 3 flow. If you have eliminated one then look other places. Too many times we get stuck thinking its a light problem when its a chemistry problem or visa versa. Good luck hope it works out!

 

[allabarton]

Me Z, thank you for you suggestions.

I am afraid to say anything too early, but I think things are looking better.

And you are right I am one of those that would be obsessing over chemistry and over looked other important factors.

I deprived corals of energy and nutrients. Light and food. And when I so my SPS shrinking, loosing tissue, STN/RTN I naturally thought it was due to chemistry. I started to dose Alk and Ca and Mg supplements to increase values that were not too off in the first place: Alk 7.5-8.0 dKH, Ca 400 ppm and Mg 1250 ppm.

Another thing: experient reefers how suggest not too feed corals or feed fish a few times a week in stead of a few times a day need to keep in mind that not all the tanks are mature enough or have a good number of fish too provide nutrients to SPS and other invertebrates.

 

[allabarton]

As others have said it looks like the coral damage is due to ALK swing (RTN/STN) and ALK burn (tip burn). Effects from the swing will still take place weeks after the initial swing.

Tell you the true I am still not convinced that it was due to Alk swings. My Alk never went up over 8.5-8.7 dKH and below 7.5-7.7 dKH. And it would happen over a few days.

And I do use dosing pump for Alk that us run by a controller.

But one thing you are absolutely right that STN/RTN would not just stop when things stabilize in the system. It would takes weeks after. And that would confuse you even more.

Thank you.

 

[allabarton]

This:
From your posting, you will figure it all out and have your dream tank!

It is a constant learn. I am on a 6 month old rebuild. I went without for a few years. LOL, it is worse that starting over. We do so much different and better now. I am on a fast learning curve. Reason for me posting?... I am learning from your willingness to post and ask. We will never stop learning in this hobby.

You and I have a common problem, we both want to make it happen and don't want to wait for it to happen. You and I forget the tank is not a sports car, it is a huge ship that takes a while to respond, maybe even weeks. We tend to make changes before the last change we made has had a chance to take full effect. So we are are changing the changes and not correcting the real problem. This means we are normal! I have thought about wearing hand cuffs after I finish feeding and dosing my tank. But, I'm learning. I think!

I now dose and feed exactly like my notes say, some doses even days the others on odd days. Steady does it. AND guess what my tank says thank you. But, I'm still not happy with my zoa performance skills.

Thank you!

Fragmatic, I am going to keep posting. I do want others to learn from my mistakes.

 

[allabarton]

Here is where I am now: since I started to feed my fish (Rod's, Cyclop-Ezee, Mysis, Nutramar Ova) and corals (Oyster Feast) more and more often Phosphates started to climb up. It went as high as 0.28-0.3 ppm (Hanna checker) without any ill effects. So I decided to turn GFO reactor back on with 1/3 of recommended dose (1/2 cup HC BRS GFO). I's being on for 1 week. So far so good. I just don't see any other ways to keep PO4 at 0.03-0.05 in my case. Not weekly 10% WC, not Marco Algae and not even Green Hair Algae would reduce it.

As for GHA: a few weeks ago I bought 60 different Hermit crabs from Reefcleaners.org. To my big surprise these hard working guys clean all rocks of GHA on days. Of course now I feed them some frozen food.

I dose Red Sea Reef Energy A & B (Amino Acids). Don't forget my system was ULNS. I like how coral react to this supplement, but my skimmer goes crazy for hours. I decided to give a try to Aquavitro Fuel. Only half recommended dose 20 ml. Skimmer handles this fine.

My LEDs are gradually being increased by a EcoSmart Live software. Even Scolymia that does not like strong light has a great response. Well it tells me that I really did not have enough light. Another clue that i did not have enough light was (if I am correct): PO4 0.09-0.3 ppm and NO3 1-3 ppm and no algae on the glass.

Anything else? Oh I left the chemistry along.

In a few weeks when my corals and I get over the stress I am going to obtain a few inexpensive frags and see how they go.

One more thing. I discovered that if I am mixing fresh saltwater mix for too long it could decrease Alkalinity by 1-2 dKH or more. Also I should take more time acclimating new corals when I add them to QT or DT. Corals should be acclimated not only to a temperature or salinity, but also Alkalinity. Am I wrong?

Ok. I am off to feed my fish, 2 dogs and 3 little kids and my husband (if I still want to get more corals).