Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

[StatelineReefer]

Chemiclean is an antibiotic, erythromycin, despite misleading claims otherwise.

We always suspected it was erythromycin because of the very strange wording that it was not "erythromycin succinate:". Sort of like saying you don't have a red car when asked if you have a car.

But apparently a government office in Germany tested it and found it was erythromycin:

http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-526917.html

 

[StatelineReefer]

Chemiclean is erythromycin estolate. The estolate is likely the soap-like molecule that will cause a skimmer to foam over. Detergents are known to disrupt cell walls. The estolate alone might be a useful cyanobacteria mat disrupter. Anyone ever try just estolate?

 

[MnFish1]

@StatelineReefer

source>? link

I would fully believe it is some sort of antibiotic, it'd just be nice to see a legit source on it. truly all these years it's only forum whispers have seen

According to the company - it is a 'trade secret'.
The product is apparently now available in the EU - so if there was a ban - it seems to be corrected?

 

[StatelineReefer]

Apparently the link no longer works. I'll see if archive.org has a snapshot of it when I get out of work

 

[MnFish1]

This is what Brandon was saying - there is only anecdotal reports from reefing sites.

 

[StatelineReefer]

According to the company - it is a 'trade secret'.
The product is apparently now available in the EU - so if there was a ban - it seems to be corrected?

They get around the ban by listing it as a trade secret 'proprietary salt' which... well, they're not TECHNICALLY wrong.

 

[MnFish1]

They get around the ban by listing it as a trade secret 'proprietary salt' which... well, they're not TECHNICALLY wrong.

I would be (kind of) surprised - that if the EU banned a product, that they would allow it to be sold again merely by the company saying 'we aren't going to tell you what's in it. However, it's known that various other cyano products do contain erythromycin - and there are several threads here and other sites where people have eradicated cyano (at least temporarily) - with erythromycin treatment

 

[brandon429]

so what you're saying is, only forum posts can be the proof.

that link was dead u gave me

what we can't get as proof:

an actual microbiological study

chromatography like what happened to Vibrant

anything from the actual manufacturer

OSHA chem specs on it/real proof

 

[Kathy7]

Can you send the sources of this info, please?

I wonder if after the dip you could put it in a plastic jug and take to the fire station? That’s where we drop off old medications and batteries to keep it out of our landfills and sewage systems.
I bet we can. It’s just getting the word out.

 

[StatelineReefer]

so what you're saying is, only forum posts can be the proof.

Incorrect.

that link was dead u gave me

Unfortunately correct, and archive.org did not have a snapshot of that page.

what we can't get as proof:

an actual microbiological study

chromatography like what happened to Vibrant

anything from the actual manufacturer

OSHA chem specs on it/real proof

I can easily take a sample for spectral analysis, what I am not going to do is spend the 10k usd for a spectral analysis.

 

[brandon429]

they busted vibrant though for far less cost?

I thought they could get chromatography specs on items in question for a few hundred/that's even too much for me to pay or you. you and I don't get any benefit in finding out what it really is

 

[MnFish1]

Let's get back to the topic. IF Chemiclean contains a form of erythromycin (and others products for cyano do contain it). The use of the product could lead to more bacterial resistance. However - as already stated - erythromycin is a much less used antibiotic - since there is already so much resistance.

 

[MnFish1]

they busted vibrant though for far less cost?

I thought they could get chromatography specs on items in question for a few hundred/that's even too much for me to pay or you. you and I don't get any benefit in finding out what it really is

No one 'busted' Vibrant. The exact same description for vibrant exists on their website now - as to the ingredients. It is still for sale. According to the EPA (for region 5) - the only way to get an audit report (which supposedly happened to underwater creations) - is a FOIA request. So - I continue to doubt the veracity of the claims about vibrant.

 

[shred5]

nobody knows what the ingredients are
@shred5

no 'expose' has been done on chemi clean like was done to Vibrant, word of mouth about the ingredients are all we have.

I thought there was because Randy and several others corrected me once when I said it wasn't.

Do you mean could/would it cause or promote antibiotic resistance? Yes. However, Erythromycin is a much older antibiotic - and is rarely used because many bacteria are already resistant to it. Additionally, part of 'resistance' - has to do with the concentration used. (I do not know the 'in water' concentration of erythromycin when Chemiclean is used )

EDIT - the rumor is that Chemiclean was analyzed in Europe and found to contain Erythromycin sulfate. Thus there was some some kind of ban. The formula was changed to 'something else' Various people have suggested that it was changed to a different erythromycin salt - however - As Brandon says below - I do not believe there is any complete proof of the contents @Randy Holmes-Farley

See above. Several red slime removers are Erythromycin and this has certainly been used by people on Cyano.


Here is the thing if it is they should be disclosing it.

 

[brandon429]

someone else mentioned if it was erythro, they'd have to msds disclose it but by not being erythro, they don't

such is the ways of web forum proofing

 

[MnFish1]

someone else mentioned if it was erythro, they'd have to msds disclose it but by not being erythro, they don't

such is the ways of web forum proofing

Yet you are the star promotor of people using web-based threads to prove/disprove reefing concepts - something does not make sense

 

[MnFish1]

I thought there was because Randy and several others corrected me once when I said it wasn't.



See above. Several red slime removers are Erythromycin and this has certainly been used by people on Cyano.


Here is the thing if it is they should be disclosing it.

said the same thing. Who cares - in general - the question was/is - if xxx product contains erythromycin, could that also cause antibiotic resistance. The answer IMHO is yes. No one knows what's in chemiclean as far as I know. So - the answer is still 'yes'.

 

[brandon429]

I dont work with chemi clean, so that's a false argument. I work with cycling tanks using no tests and rip cleans, your statement is just air.
I can guarantee you any tank I make a cycling call on is going to pass a digital audit or carry the fish they want to carry without a crash, interpret that as luck if you want to/don't care, you don't have anything on the line to be making counter links anyway. = only a sideline caller

it is always a mistake to read your blocked posts that's for sure. I checked anyway just now to see if a reasonable question/exchange for your opinion about cipro might elevate the conversation, was going to inquire something I thought you might have a neat perspective on by having lab training. my mistake for sure, let's go another several months.

 

[brandon429]

for anyone other than MN fish, really put your mind to it: why doesn't anyone/sages included/teachers/ever discuss the impacts from asexual reproduction vs sexual, it has everything to do with niche adaptivity and weakness and strength and handling insults vs folding to them

using these meds/cipro/tankwide antibiotics for humans that are in short supply is weakening our stock base, letting unadapted corals and anemones die is a necessary cull given the shortcuts we've been playing off of for 30 years in the trade (using only asexually-sourced frags)

what's it going to take to get reefers to quit advising these temporary short-term shortcuts

 

[Reef and Dive]

I wonder if after the dip you could put it in a plastic jug and take to the fire station? That’s where we drop off old medications and batteries to keep it out of our landfills and sewage systems.
I bet we can. It’s just getting the word out.

I do not know if in your area it could be considered the ideal practice.

https://sidp.org/antibiotic-disposal