PNS Yellosno: Have you used it

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi Baxter,

I would definitely like to hear more about your experience! Were these both African cichlid tanks? Do you still have the bottle (and lot #)? If so, can you call us tomorrow to discuss in detail? Please bring any notes you took along the way. Hope to talk soon! Ken

 

[Ryan Holly]

Hi Kenneth,
I recently purchased both Probio and yellow snow. I have a couple of questions:

1. You mention that the smell has been reduced, but the bottles that I got, smell very strong. I am fine with that, but just wanted to make sure that they weren't fouled (they were lost in the mail for a couple extra days.

2. I have a feeling that I have a bacterial infection making its way through some of my SPS. flesh peeling from the base, spotty flesh peeling. Single corals at a time. All parameters are perfect. I have been introducing different bacterial strains from Dr. Tim, and was excited when I stumbled onto your product. I added my first dose of Probio yesterday as well as yellow snow (didn't read till later that I should add on separate days). Anyway, how often and how much would you recommend to dose both of these products to increase this particular bacterial strain with the hopes that maybe it will out compete whatever bacteria are infecting my corals (if in fact that is the problem)

Thank you kindly,
Ryan

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi Kenneth,
I recently purchased both Probio and yellow snow. I have a couple of questions:

1. You mention that the smell has been reduced, but the bottles that I got, smell very strong. I am fine with that, but just wanted to make sure that they weren't fouled (they were lost in the mail for a couple extra days.

2. I have a feeling that I have a bacterial infection making its way through some of my SPS. flesh peeling from the base, spotty flesh peeling. Single corals at a time. All parameters are perfect. I have been introducing different bacterial strains from Dr. Tim, and was excited when I stumbled onto your product. I added my first dose of Probio yesterday as well as yellow snow (didn't read till later that I should add on separate days). Anyway, how often and how much would you recommend to dose both of these products to increase this particular bacterial strain with the hopes that maybe it will out compete whatever bacteria are infecting my corals (if in fact that is the problem)

Thank you kindly,
Ryan

Hi Ryan! Thanks for trying us out.

To answer your first question, the odor isn't necessarily abnormal. ProBio has a funky sour, fermented kambucha kind of smell. The ProBio (the live product) should definitely be fine, as it has a shelf life of months at temperatures from anywhere above freezing to like 112F. YelloSno (the preserved product) does require refrigeration, especially after opening. Its odor is admittedly a bit sharper, which is due to the partial decomp of chitin (generates methaneous gases); it normally smells like a cross between beer farts and raw shellfish (I know, not pretty, but luckily dissipates quickly once out of the bottle). That one is pasteurized and should be alright out of fridge for the short time you described, particularly if it stayed cool in transit (most likely this time of year). However, I'd discontinue use if it has any sort "death" odor to it (i.e. odors akin to any spoiled food) or if you see a black film on the inside of the bottle. If it seems questionable at all, contact your supplier and let them know about the late delivery; they should claim and replace it without question!

To answer your second question, you definitely are on the right track treating this suspected infection with ProBio, especially if it is vibriotic. The live microbe in ProBio is proven to act as a probiotic in diverse species in general and target pathogenic Vibrio in particular. I'd stick to the normally suggested dose of 1.25 ml/gallon and re-dose every other day. However, I'd actually hold off on the YelloSno (as well as all feeding, including fish foods) for the time being; the heterotrophic microbes that are likely attacking your corals thrive in the presence of dissolved organic matter. Thus, if anything, I'd continue normal use of ProBio and replace/add GAC. Only after the symptoms subside would I resume feeding. At that time you may continue use of YelloSno and other foods as directed. Once the corals are recovering, the YelloSno will help them to regrow and recondition.

Thanks again and best of luck! Please feel free to call us up if you're still unsure about the condition of your YelloSno or need assistance obtaining a replacement. Ken

 

[Ryan Holly]

Hi Ryan! Thanks for trying us out.

To answer your first question, the odor isn't necessarily abnormal. ProBio has a funky sour, fermented kambucha kind of smell. The ProBio (the live product) should definitely be fine, as it has a shelf life of months at temperatures from anywhere above freezing to like 112F. YelloSno (the preserved product) does require refrigeration, especially after opening. Its odor is admittedly a bit sharper, which is due to the partial decomp of chitin (generates methaneous gases); it normally smells like a cross between beer farts and raw shellfish (I know, not pretty, but luckily dissipates quickly once out of the bottle). That one is pasteurized and should be alright out of fridge for the short time you described, particularly if it stayed cool in transit (most likely this time of year). However, I'd discontinue use if it has any sort "death" odor to it (i.e. odors akin to any spoiled food) or if you see a black film on the inside of the bottle. If it seems questionable at all, contact your supplier and let them know about the late delivery; they should claim and replace it without question!

To answer your second question, you definitely are on the right track treating this suspected infection with ProBio, especially if it is vibriotic. The live microbe in ProBio is proven to act as a probiotic in diverse species in general and target pathogenic Vibrio in particular. I'd stick to the normally suggested dose of 1.25 ml/gallon and re-dose every other day. However, I'd actually hold off on the YelloSno (as well as all feeding, including fish foods) for the time being; the heterotrophic microbes that are likely attacking your corals thrive in the presence of dissolved organic matter. Thus, if anything, I'd continue normal use of ProBio and replace/add GAC. Only after the symptoms subside would I resume feeding. At that time you may continue use of YelloSno and other foods as directed. Once the corals are recovering, the YelloSno will help them to regrow and recondition.

Thanks again and best of luck! Please feel free to call us up if you're still unsure about the condition of your YelloSno or need assistance obtaining a replacement. Ken

Thanks Kenneth. I am really excited about these products and the work you guys are doing to address some of these issues. I had a reef tank in the past and grew SPS effectively, and never had any of these issues. This time around I changed two things. First is that I used all dry rock and the second was I went to the triton method. The tritron method seems to be working well. Parameters are always on point. Nitrates are around 5ppm and phosphates around 0.05. I am leaning toward the problem with all dry rock. With this, I didn't get near the diversity of microbes that I would from live rock. Just a hypothesis.

We can test so many things in this field, however, the microbial testing is just not there yet. Allowing other microbes to get established where they may never establish in a natural setting could be a big problem, and add to what I am seeing. Hoping that with the addition of PNS my SPS problem will clear up. I'll make sure to keep you updated.

Ryan

 

[gmdcdvm]

Well, I am always up for trying something new. Just order some of both of these products to try out.
Thanks again for tall the info.
Gerry

 

[NanPoriferan]

@Kenneth Wingerter : I have a 13.5 gal fluval evo tank with sponges and lps corals. I have been dosing PNS Probio, PNS YelloSno, and OceanMajik at 11.25ml, 9ml, and 5ml respectively, daily. I noticed sponges thriving and growing with this feeding regiment, but I recently cut down the dosage to 4.25ml, 4ml, and 2.5ml daily based on the fact that I was getting a bacterial gunk buildup as stringy white and off-white matter in the tank. The AlgaeBarn site states the dosing suggestion, but does not state the frequency, which is what I am looking for. I guess I am just trying to hone in on the optimal dose. Any feedback is much appreciated!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi NanPoriferan! Since you're getting a bacterial (rather than algae) bloom, it appears that organic carbon is in excess. The stringy white and off-white matter does sound like bacterial biofloc, but likely not from R. palustris. If your tank was performing well at the prior dosage of ProBio, I'd stick with that or even increase it; more PNSB will consume more organic wastes, thereby competing more with the whitish slime bacteria (presumably a heterotrophic aerobe, from what I can gather). On the other hand, I'd say you did right by decreasing the YelloSno; reducing that product (and all other foods) will likely curb the bloom you're experiencing. I'm less certain about the ideal dosage for OceanMagik, since that has more to do with the grazing rate of your phytoplanktivores; given that you have some sponges in there, it's likely that the phyto doesn't last long, so you could maybe incrementally increase dosage back to the prior feed rate.

In terms of frequency, those dosages are maximum daily doses. You can add either PNS product often, even daily, just so long as you don't add too much at once (especially the YelloSno). I will say that it's pretty hard to overdose the ProBio; we've applied 40x overdoses (!!) in tests with SPS, LPS and zoas and couldn't cause any apparent harm to these corals. We've also run a test tank with NPS corals including Dendronephthya (for 5 months and going) that has no filter, rock or sand; this tank has run fine with minimal water changes and no other foods/supplements using the PNS products, a little OceanMagik and some very occasional Coral Feast. The idea is to find that sweet spot where you're feeding the corals the YelloSno, phyto and any other foods you use, and the ProBio bacteria consume those nutrients and organics as fast as they are imported. And then those bacteria are also eaten, eventually.

In short, the max daily dose for each product is a starting point that you may fine tune based on your needs and the results you observe. The doses of each product may be changed independently of each other. But if ORP data, water discoloration, odors, or (as in your case) proliferation of likely heterotrophic microbes suggests excessive DOM, then increasing ProBio and decreasing YelloSno are a good first step. In addition to adding more ProBio, you can increase its living space by increasing the amount of anaerobic biomedia (and/or use GAC and increase water changes). The phyto are actually the trickiest--while they do sequester nutrients while they are alive, they are ultimately an import of both nutrients and organic carbon. Kind of have to balance the minimal nutritional needs of your obligate phytoplanktivores with phyto dosage and also water changes, loss to skimming, etc. All the algebra that makes reefing so fun haha.

I hope that helps some! Greg at AlgaeBarn has had a lot of success using these three products in a similar tank (including large sponges). It may be worthwhile to reach out to him as well for some suggestions. Best of luck and happy reefing. And thanks for your inquiry, this will definitely help us as we improve/refine product instructions.

 

[NanPoriferan]

Hi NanPoriferan! Since you're getting a bacterial (rather than algae) bloom, it appears that organic carbon is in excess. The stringy white and off-white matter does sound like bacterial biofloc, but likely not from R. palustris. If your tank was performing well at the prior dosage of ProBio, I'd stick with that or even increase it; more PNSB will consume more organic wastes, thereby competing more with the whitish slime bacteria (presumably a heterotrophic aerobe, from what I can gather). On the other hand, I'd say you did right by decreasing the YelloSno; reducing that product (and all other foods) will likely curb the bloom you're experiencing. I'm less certain about the ideal dosage for OceanMagik, since that has more to do with the grazing rate of your phytoplanktivores; given that you have some sponges in there, it's likely that the phyto doesn't last long, so you could maybe incrementally increase dosage back to the prior feed rate.

In terms of frequency, those dosages are maximum daily doses. You can add either PNS product often, even daily, just so long as you don't add too much at once (especially the YelloSno). I will say that it's pretty hard to overdose the ProBio; we've applied 40x overdoses (!!) in tests with SPS, LPS and zoas and couldn't cause any apparent harm to these corals. We've also run a test tank with NPS corals including Dendronephthya (for 5 months and going) that has no filter, rock or sand; this tank has run fine with minimal water changes and no other foods/supplements using the PNS products, a little OceanMagik and some very occasional Coral Feast. The idea is to find that sweet spot where you're feeding the corals the YelloSno, phyto and any other foods you use, and the ProBio bacteria consume those nutrients and organics as fast as they are imported. And then those bacteria are also eaten, eventually.

In short, the max daily dose for each product is a starting point that you may fine tune based on your needs and the results you observe. The doses of each product may be changed independently of each other. But if ORP data, water discoloration, odors, or (as in your case) proliferation of likely heterotrophic microbes suggests excessive DOM, then increasing ProBio and decreasing YelloSno are a good first step. In addition to adding more ProBio, you can increase its living space by increasing the amount of anaerobic biomedia (and/or use GAC and increase water changes). The phyto are actually the trickiest--while they do sequester nutrients while they are alive, they are ultimately an import of both nutrients and organic carbon. Kind of have to balance the minimal nutritional needs of your obligate phytoplanktivores with phyto dosage and also water changes, loss to skimming, etc. All the algebra that makes reefing so fun haha.

I hope that helps some! Greg at AlgaeBarn has had a lot of success using these three products in a similar tank (including large sponges). It may be worthwhile to reach out to him as well for some suggestions. Best of luck and happy reefing. And thanks for your inquiry, this will definitely help us as we improve/refine product instructions.

@Kenneth Wingerter Thanks so much for this amazingly informative reply - everything you mentioned makes a lot of sense and I will tweak things accordingly. Since I decreased the PNS Probio, I have noticed less growth happening on the sponges, will ramp it up again and decrease the YelloSno as well as decrease the OceanMajik. I am also vodka-dosing and swear by it, but I think I can decrease that as well and monitor phosphate/Nitrate so they keep undetectable. Also dosing Brightwell CoralAmino and SpongePower. I think those can be tweaked downwards as well. My understanding is that Sponges don't readily consume foods > 1micron in size, so even the Nanochloropsis in OceanMajik is too large, and therefore not readily available for them, although if you know otherwise please let me know. I will reach out to Greg as well, thanks for the heads up! You guys at AlgaeBarn are awesome and thanks for all you do

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Thanks for your kind words. You're correct that sponges seem to prefer extremely small particles, but they (at least many of them) can ingest phyto cells as large as 10 microns. In some species, particles up to 2 millimeters that get stuck on the outside of the sponge can be "carried inside" by its exopinacocytes. All that being said, I've never in my life seen sponge growth like I have using PNS ProBio. Funny you mentioned this when you did, because I was just thinking about setting up a system to try ProBio and YelloSno together on a spider sponge.

 

[NanPoriferan]

Thanks for your kind words. You're correct that sponges seem to prefer extremely small particles, but they (at least many of them) can ingest phyto cells as large as 10 microns. In some species, particles up to 2 millimeters that get stuck on the outside of the sponge can be "carried inside" by its exopinacocytes. All that being said, I've never in my life seen sponge growth like I have using PNS ProBio. Funny you mentioned this when you did, because I was just thinking about setting up a system to try ProBio and YelloSno together on a spider sponge.

I had a feeling that was the case, specifically considering the phagocytosis aspect of a sponge's biology. surprised @ exopinacocytes, that's truly fascinating. I'm advancing towards my current goal for the sponge tank to arrive at that finely tuned sweet spot you mentioned previously with dosing the three products (OceanMajik, YelloSno, and Probio), with the frequency of dosing being especially key. I would concur I have also never seen the sponge growth I have seen with PNS Probio, especially on my blue sponge. The key for me is, since I am in BC, Canada, to get a larger batch since the shipping cost is considerable and I was going through the 500ml bottle in a month. currently have four different Sponge Species in the tank, including the blue sponge (Haliclona sp.), yellow ball sponge, yellow ear sponge, and another spikey orange porcupine sponge. I have kept the Aussie tiger sponge (simlar to spider sponge perhaps) some years ago with moderate success, but knowing what I know now, if I see it around, I would definitely add it to my current sponge tank. Let me know how it goes if you decide to set up that system!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Will do! And by all means, post pics here of those sponges if you'd like.

 

[Kayvon]

Saw your appearance one MileHighReefer's channel. Is your product available at LFS's?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Hi, Kayvon. Not so much right now, but that may be changing very soon (as in a few weeks). Talking to a distributor; more on that later!

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Hi,

I was unaware of this thread until now. I got both products along with the ocean magic from algae barm about 2 months ago. I used it for my 180 that is over 10 years old.

Great product. I did not have any real issues, but I noticed a much cleaner rock after use. I dosed more heavily the Sno and phyto and only about 2/3 of the red bottle, but it worked great. It worked so well I decided to start culturing my own phyto and order more Sno.for maintenance and coral feeding

 

[NanPoriferan]

Will do! And by all means, post pics here of those sponges if you'd like.

 

[Giancarlo_f]

I have been broadcast feeding PNS Yellow Sno and I have never seen a more pronounced feeding response from my various gonioporas and bernardpora (both wild and aquacultured specimen). The best food I have used for flowerpots by far aside from red sea ab+ which they also visibly have a feeding response to. I really want to try NPS corals with yellow sno and pro bio dosing.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I have been broadcast feeding PNS Yellow Sno and I have never seen a more pronounced feeding response from my various gonioporas and bernardpora (both wild and aquacultured specimen). The best food I have used for flowerpots by far aside from red sea ab+ which they also visibly have a feeding response to. I really want to try NPS corals with yellow sno and pro bio dosing.

If you're interested in NPS corals, we've had reasonably good luck using ProBio and YelloSno (both daily) for Dendronephthya.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Saw your appearance one MileHighReefer's channel. Is your product available at LFS's?

Your LFS can now get all PNS products from Aquarium Supply Distribution (https://aquariumsupplydistribution.com).

 

[Giancarlo_f]

If you're interested in NPS corals, we've had reasonably good luck using ProBio and YelloSno (both daily) for Dendronephthya.

Gives me even more confidence to try!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Something new... Includes both Rhodopseudomonas and Rhodospirillum.

PNS Substrate Sauce™

PNS Substrate Sauce™ Containing a blend of the ecologically important purple non-sulfur bacteria (PNSB) Rhodopseudomonas palustris and Rhodospirillum rubrum, PNS Substrate Sauce™ helps to establish a healthy and dynamic microbiome in all marine and brackish aquaria. Cultured on select...

www.algaebarn.com