Poll: Alkalinity Monitoring Options

[Amoo]

Since working with Jonas, I really admire and proud of his dedication to this hobby. As he says, he has been almost working 24/7 on this project for over a year which started as his DIY project. He goes into very fine details in terms of all the different parts and how hoses should run etc. I can't say ALL but probably we have looked into most of the details in a very fine manner and have done tests to decide on the final design of the product.

I think this is a very good thread of we can say and discuss our views in a polite manners. We should be making friends in this hobby and not enemies!

I will not even lie, I personally hadn't looked TOO much into Alkatronic other then casually following Jonas's progress and it wasn't on my short list, but his professionalism led me into looking further into the project and it has jumped from not on my list to in my Top 3. Now I just need to see which controllers that pH probe will connect to, as my current Apex Light will be moving to my new 33G build and my controller decision Profilux vs Apex will heavily depend on which monitoring system I choose. So for me I just want the best combination of accuracy and precision I can get in a reliable product and I'm not in the least bit biased and am willing to let the chips fall where they fall.

 

[MnFish1]

Right - I wasn't asking about 'precision' I was asking about 'accuracy'.

I'm not sure your involvement in the hobby in the summer of 2015 (IIRC?) when mindstream announced their product initially and launched their kickstarter. I'm PRETTY SURE but not positive many of our chemists (I know Randy was one of them) begun to theorize and explain to a lot of the community some of the benefits of getting these measurements on such a frequent basis (mindstream is every 20 mins iirc? ).

The reality is we really don't know yet. Unfortunately for this hobby anything that doesn't get crossover from the aqua culture industry for food, we really lack many of the funds as a community to do much research. You have folks like Dana and others who are able to get their hands on some of the expensive equipment it takes, but at no time previously in this hobby have we had the opportunity to collect data on a wide scale level about how Element uptake could effect coral growth and coloration. Like them or hate them, I'm pretty sure Mindstream started all of this. Now that said, I believe many of these other companies have done their own research and development when mindstream revealed the consumer want for a product like this and they all went about their own way of doing it. Essentially Mindstream's failure to get off the ground when they hoped, really left the market wide open and we're very fortunate that many of the other companies that took the idea and made it in to these products we're seeing.

So while it may not matter in the long run, exactly what benefits can be seen from having this much measuring frequency AND consumer data, the possibilities are endless. Yes people will screw some things up at first, but that doesn't make these a bad product for the crowd. The brains on these boards will interpolate all this data and in 2 years instead of seeing threads asking for help calculating 2 part, Randy will spend half his day helping people extrapolate their data to figure out peek (max efficiency) dosing times.

Yes - I watched the Dana Riddle presentation. There wasn't much said about maintaining alkalinity at a given point. He seemed to be more focused on PAR. It was interesting that as alk increased, photosynthesis increased (he did not find - that I saw- a point where it leveled off). Here is an interesting debate question - if you have 500$ to spend whats the best value - a PAR meter and several alkalinity tests (by hand) or an automatic alkalinity monitor?

 

[Amoo]

PAR meter all day every day. If I could only have 1 "expensive" toy in my tollbox for taking care of my tank beyond the things we consider "basic", definitely a PAR meter.

That said I think we can all agree we need to test Alk, if we can find a way to automate the testing at a cost we can stomach then do with the data what we want, I think it offers much more value for a semi-scientific approach to "modernizing Reefkeeping" as opposed to a truckload of hand tests.

And you're correct I'm sorry if my assertation led you to assume his presentation focused heavily on the Alk aspect, he did some testing with it, but I don't know exactly how far that went or if it went any further then just observing the uptake increase. This is why I love this forum though because maybe @Dana Riddle can explain how in depth he went or is at with relationship to Alk vs photosynthesis in relation testing frequency.

 

[justingraham]

PAR meter all day every day. If I could only have 1 "expensive" toy in my tollbox for taking care of my tank beyond the things we consider "basic", definitely a PAR meter.

That said I think we can all agree we need to test Alk, if we can find a way to automate the testing at a cost we can stomach then do with the data what we want, I think it offers much more value for a semi-scientific approach to "modernizing Reefkeeping" as opposed to a truckload of hand tests.

And you're correct I'm sorry if my assertation led you to assume his presentation focused heavily on the Alk aspect, he did some testing with it, but I don't know exactly how far that went or if it went any further then just observing the uptake increase. This is why I love this forum though because maybe @Dana Riddle can explain how in depth he went or is at with relationship to Alk vs photosynthesis in relation testing frequency.

I agree with the par meter being the best tool but depending on your lights it's a two year type tool. I would say a monitor would be a better one as this means when your not home you can test and adjust ur alk and something used daily . Unless of course you have LEDs and you are steadily changing the settings to find that perfect setting for your eyes but even after that when you find it after getting the par set with leds what does it do after that? If what they say about leds is true if you never adjust them from where you set them besides cloudy water the par will barely change.

I would borrow par meter (I'm lucky I can do that maby most people don't have that ability) and buy a monitor.

 

[Eric Tang]

one point to add about Riddle's presentation is that with a higher alk level, corals will need less light and is also something we are looking into with our Alkatronic and our lights.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Well... Since you asked. Light and water chemistry (particularly pH/alkalinity but others, of course) are important in promoting photosynthesis. In my own experience, I purchased a PAR meter as one of my first aquarium instruments, and I would recommend use of one especially when setting up a tank. Many of the questions asked in online lighting forums could be answered through use of a light-measuring device. This is not to say that I am not excited by the prospect of continuous alkalinity/calcium/magnesium monitoring.
Now to answer some questions raised here. Old myths about lighting die hard and, when invited to make a presentation at MACNA, I thought it would be interesting to look at several parameters, and how they might affect rates of zooxanthellae photosynthesis. First, the amount of light required by a couple of shallow tide pool corals was examined. In both cases, surprisingly little light maxed out the rates of photosynthesis. The main focus, however, was if alkalinity/pH could affect photosynthesis. We saw photosynthesis increasing with increasing alkalinity/pH as measured with a PAM fluorometer. It has been established that the turnover rate of water (including alkalinity) in coral polyps (Turbinaria, if I recall correctly) is about 15 minutes. Hence, the fluorometer was used to take measurements over the course of hours and I did not examine alkalinity uptake since the amount consumed would have been very small. Effects of water motion were also examined.
Invitations to make a presentation at a major conference (like MACNA) usually come about a year out, and it took the entire time to get these projects completed. First, a hypothesis is developed and the experimental protocol is established. In this case, in order to look at effects of low alkalinity, tanks were set up and spiked with ammonia in order to naturally destroy alkalinity and this process took about 6-7 weeks. Bear in mind that there is no guarantee that the hypothesis is correct and there is always the possibility that the project will be a complete bust, but initial results suggested the project would be a 'go.' So, the experiments were repeated (another 8 weeks passed by.) And it would be repeated a third time. Recall that the alkalinity part of the presentation was about 1/3 of the content, and other things were examined (water motion, light, zooxanthellae/chlorophyll content.) After this info was collected the most difficult part begins - that of examining and analyzing the volumes of data generated, picking out what I think would be of interest, and, finally, building a PowerPoint presentation. It is a lot of work and there have been many occasions hat final touches were put on the presentation the morning of making it.
There is always some data not examined (effects of water chemistry on non-photochemical quenching comes to mind) and, as always, unanswered questions (effects of nutrients on rates of photosynthesis.) If I'm lucky, I've got 20 good years left. That is not enough time.

 

[JimFuller]

I have been reading the thread so far. I would like to remind people, there are a number of us that would be happy with test once per day that is automated. I currently test my tank once a week with a salifert kit. Part of this is due to not beeing at the tank for good part of the week on my current project. An automated system that is remotely accessable would be a great help to know when things need to be done. Just being able to maintain my tank in a reasonable manor is my goal. I am not looking to be that worlds greatest most exact Tank, instead I wish a good tank that is nice to play view and enjoy.

 

[Anthony Mckay]

So we can all talk about them bump our gums even argue about the best one !
Its time someone actually realised one lol !

 

[MnFish1]

Well... Since you asked. Light and water chemistry (particularly pH/alkalinity but others, of course) are important in promoting photosynthesis. In my own experience, I purchased a PAR meter as one of my first aquarium instruments, and I would recommend use of one especially when setting up a tank. Many of the questions asked in online lighting forums could be answered through use of a light-measuring device. This is not to say that I am not excited by the prospect of continuous alkalinity/calcium/magnesium monitoring.
Now to answer some questions raised here. Old myths about lighting die hard and, when invited to make a presentation at MACNA, I thought it would be interesting to look at several parameters, and how they might affect rates of zooxanthellae photosynthesis. First, the amount of light required by a couple of shallow tide pool corals was examined. In both cases, surprisingly little light maxed out the rates of photosynthesis. The main focus, however, was if alkalinity/pH could affect photosynthesis. We saw photosynthesis increasing with increasing alkalinity/pH as measured with a PAM fluorometer. It has been established that the turnover rate of water (including alkalinity) in coral polyps (Turbinaria, if I recall correctly) is about 15 minutes. Hence, the fluorometer was used to take measurements over the course of hours and I did not examine alkalinity uptake since the amount consumed would have been very small. Effects of water motion were also examined.
Invitations to make a presentation at a major conference (like MACNA) usually come about a year out, and it took the entire time to get these projects completed. First, a hypothesis is developed and the experimental protocol is established. In this case, in order to look at effects of low alkalinity, tanks were set up and spiked with ammonia in order to naturally destroy alkalinity and this process took about 6-7 weeks. Bear in mind that there is no guarantee that the hypothesis is correct and there is always the possibility that the project will be a complete bust, but initial results suggested the project would be a 'go.' So, the experiments were repeated (another 8 weeks passed by.) And it would be repeated a third time. Recall that the alkalinity part of the presentation was about 1/3 of the content, and other things were examined (water motion, light, zooxanthellae/chlorophyll content.) After this info was collected the most difficult part begins - that of examining and analyzing the volumes of data generated, picking out what I think would be of interest, and, finally, building a PowerPoint presentation. It is a lot of work and there have been many occasions hat final touches were put on the presentation the morning of making it.
There is always some data not examined (effects of water chemistry on non-photochemical quenching comes to mind) and, as always, unanswered questions (effects of nutrients on rates of photosynthesis.) If I'm lucky, I've got 20 good years left. That is not enough time.

Thanks it was a great talk! And a great answer @Dana Riddle

Is there any data out there that shows the degree to which alkalinity varies over the course of a day in various reef conditions? For example the tide pool in your experiment? As compared to a deeper reef area? There have been a couple papers suggesting that coral grow better with a diurnal variation in pH - as compared to maintaining pH constant. Any data on this with regards to coral growth and alkalinity variation?

The questions ive always had about PAR meters are:

1. Is it 'better' to gradually increasae 'PAR' over the course of the day with some overshoot at the peak perhaps (similar to the sun in your experiment where by 100-150 PAR photosynthesis leveled off and then declined some), or is it better to have a rapid rise to the 'lower light level (adequate PAR) which is then constant for a longer period (in your opinion)?

2. How do you know (besides trial and error) which range of PAR is best for a specific Coral species (i..e is there a list somewhere) or is it more 'SPS = x-y', 'LPS lower', etc.

PS - I thought your comments on flow in the experiment were very interesting. Were you suggesting that most tanks do not have enough flow - and that increasing flow will allow better light tolerance even with higher alkalinity?

Thansk. (Mod people feel free to move this somehow to another place - dont want to jack the thread - but I was trying to relate PAR to Alkalinity testing)

 

[Dana Riddle]

Thanks it was a great talk! And a great answer @Dana Riddle

Is there any data out there that shows the degree to which alkalinity varies over the course of a day in various reef conditions? For example the tide pool in your experiment? As compared to a deeper reef area? There have been a couple papers suggesting that coral grow better with a diurnal variation in pH - as compared to maintaining pH constant. Any data on this with regards to coral growth and alkalinity variation?

The questions ive always had about PAR meters are:

1. Is it 'better' to gradually increasae 'PAR' over the course of the day with some overshoot at the peak perhaps (similar to the sun in your experiment where by 100-150 PAR photosynthesis leveled off and then declined some), or is it better to have a rapid rise to the 'lower light level (adequate PAR) which is then constant for a longer period (in your opinion)?

2. How do you know (besides trial and error) which range of PAR is best for a specific Coral species (i..e is there a list somewhere) or is it more 'SPS = x-y', 'LPS lower', etc.

PS - I thought your comments on flow in the experiment were very interesting. Were you suggesting that most tanks do not have enough flow - and that increasing flow will allow better light tolerance even with higher alkalinity?

Thansk. (Mod people feel free to move this somehow to another place - dont want to jack the thread - but I was trying to relate PAR to Alkalinity testing)

It will take some time to get answers to some of your questions. But here is a start.
Concerning alkalinity. We know there is a relationship between pH and alkalinity. I don't have any alk numbers, but plenty of pH values. See here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/6/aafeature
As for PAR, corals' zooxanthellae can adjust to rapidly changing light fields (as an example, when an overcast day suddenly becomes sunny.) I do ramp light intensity up and down in my aquarium (mostly to avoid photoinhibition.)
I'll try to get back to your questions. Dealing with the remnants of Irma right now, with lots of rain and wind gusts. Don't know how much longer we'll have power - lights have been flickering for a while.

 

[MnFish1]

It will take some time to get answers to some of your questions. But here is a start.
Concerning alkalinity. We know there is a relationship between pH and alkalinity. I don't have any alk numbers, but plenty of pH values. See here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/6/aafeature
As for PAR, corals' zooxanthellae can adjust to rapidly changing light fields (as an example, when an overcast day suddenly becomes sunny.) I do ramp light intensity up and down in my aquarium (mostly to avoid photoinhibition.)
I'll try to get back to your questions. Dealing with the remnants of Irma right now, with lots of rain and wind gusts. Don't know how much longer we'll have power - lights have been flickering for a while.

Thansk alot - interesting article1

 

[Anthony Mckay]

This is why I love coming to this place because I learn so much and even if I remember one tiny bit that helps my hobby thats a win.
Great threads Dana and Mnfish1

 

[Dana Riddle]

Here are some pieces of the lighting puzzle. There are hundreds of different zooxanthellate 'types' (or clades) and each will have its own lighting requirements. As a general rule, the 'C' clades (found in most Pacific stony corals) are not as tolerant of high light as say, Clade A. See here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/3/aafeature1
and here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2016/2/aafeature

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is there any data out there that shows the degree to which alkalinity varies over the course of a day in various reef conditions? For example the tide pool in your experiment? As compared to a deeper reef area? There have been a couple papers suggesting that coral grow better with a diurnal variation in pH - as compared to maintaining pH constant.

I know the primary question related to alk variation, but I'm replying to the premise of diurnal pH variation encouraging faster growth, and the same interpretation difficulties would apply to diurnal alk variation in the absence of pH variation, if there was such a study (I doubt there has been since it would be VERY complex to set up).

Most of the things that I have seen suggest that lower pH retards growth of calcifying organisms. When you say papers showed that diurnal variation caused corals to grow better, was that compared to the mean pH unchanged? Or to the high pH unchanged?

The interpretation of those two different experiments would be rather different. For example, was the variation the important thing, or just that calcification is so much greater at higher pH that it is the high pH that is important for faster growth or so much worse at lower pH that the low pH issue dominates).

Since reefers can control, to some extent, both the actual pH and the variation, the different interpretations have potentially important consequences.

That said, this calcifying macroalgae grew more poorly with diurnal variation of +/- 0.4 pH units around a mean as opposed to fixed at the mean:

Diurnal fluctuations in seawater pH influence the response of a calcifying macroalga to ocean acidification
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/royprsb/280/1772/20132201.full.pdf

"In all cases, growth rates were lower at a reduced mean pH, and fluctuations in pH acted additively to further reduce growth"

And in this article, places with natural pH variability tended to be those with fewer calcifying organisms relative to noncalcifying organisms (suggestign the calcifying ones do not prefer the variability, or some aspect of it, such as the low pH end):

Diel Variability in Seawater pH Relates to Calcification and Benthic Community Structure on Coral Reefs
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0043843

"In general, accretion rates were higher at sites that experienced a greater number of hours at high pH values each day."

 

[MnFish1]

Most of the things that I have seen suggest that lower pH retards growth of calcifying organisms. When you say papers showed that diurnal variation caused corals to grow better, was that compared to the mean pH unchanged? Or to the high pH unchanged?

Here are a couple I found.
http://www.co2science.org/articles/V17/N28/B2.php (summary of another article)
"the increased resistance of Acropora hyacinthusexposed to large pCO2 oscillation (particularly in the 400-2000-oscillating treatment) compared to the response of corals under constant pCO2 conditions suggests that reef corals may be more resistant to future ocean acidification conditions in locations where diel variation in seawater pCO2 is pronounced."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385465/ (another article)
"corals respond in different ways to each condition with the highest rates of calcification occurring under oscillating pCO2 conditions."

there was another 1 or 2 also but I cant fund them. There are also several I cant understand Like this one:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034600/

The interpretation of those two different experiments would be rather different. For example, was the variation the important thing, or just that calcification is so much greater at higher pH that it is the high pH that is important for faster growth or so much worse at lower pH that the low pH issue dominates).

Good question. Reading the papers is quite technical - and the units are not always something am familiar with when they talk about CO2. It seems though that they suggest the variability is beneficial to my reading (a lay persons reading)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They have some interesting data, and I think it runs somewhat counter to the idea that oscillation itself is good, and just reinforces that low pH is bad, and that spending at least some time at higher pH is beneficial, whether that is all day/night, or just the peak pH.

Their full article:

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps_oa/m501p099.pdf

Look at Figure 4, which seems to summarize things best.

They have basically three different "mean CO2" regimens, and can either hold that level steady, or allow it to oscillate daily around that mean.

Two of the regimens (both the normal and slightly lower pH regimens; two left most graphs) do not really show a difference between oscillating around that mean, or holding steady at the mean CO2.

At the very highest CO2 regimen (400-2,000 CO2), the oscillation around the mean is better than holding it steady at that same mean (1000 CO2), but it is NOT better than holding steady at the normal (higher) pH end of that range (400 CO2). That is, compare the black oscillating bar at the far right of Figure 4 to the grey, steady CO2 bar on the far left.

My conclusion is that steady low pH is bad, and that if you get up to normal pH at least part of the day, or all of the day, you'll be OK.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that the coral larvae in the second article seem to like both low pH (exp II) and oscillating pH (exp I). Not sure why they are different than bigger corals. Maybe larvae have differently developed uptake and export methods, or just that its a different coral species.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385465/

 

[MnFish1]

I agree that the coral larvae in the second article seem to like both low pH (exp II) and oscillating pH (exp I). Not sure why they are different than bigger corals. Maybe larvae have differently developed uptake and export methods, or just that its a different coral species.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385465/

Thanks for looking this over - it was interesting to read them (now that you explained it I can understand them)!.

 

[MnFish1]

Here are some pieces of the lighting puzzle. There are hundreds of different zooxanthellate 'types' (or clades) and each will have its own lighting requirements. As a general rule, the 'C' clades (found in most Pacific stony corals) are not as tolerant of high light as say, Clade A. See here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/3/aafeature1
and here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2016/2/aafeature

Thanks alot - intersting

 

[revhtree]

Great info in this thread!