POLL: Do you ever see this hobby being viewed as cruel to animals thus becoming banned/illegal?

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Am i the only.person who wants to be a coral farmer for the ocean? Out in the ocean? Lol.
If i could help i would. If i could.release 1000 new born chromis i would.

Are fresh water aquariums and saltwater even comparable? I could turn my 300g dining room table tank into a big pond tank and stock the lake with the livestock offspring...would i be helping the lake? Idk... lol.
My thoughts
D

 

[ZoWhat]

No chance, unless they outlaw dog and cat ownership as well.

Dogs and cats are not wild caught running in a field somewhere. They are bred.

Fish and coral that are aquacultured....still have a very short leash connection to the wild.

As far as "pets are pets"..... then that line of thinking can be said about raising tigers, lions, elephants, monkeys, snakes and exotic birds (????)

Hmmmmm. I could raise some tigers in my backyard. Wonder how the State of Ohio would like that?




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[blasterman]

"Ban our Hobby"

Define hobby. My hobby is to keep and grow coral. I keep a minimum of sustainable fish like damsels and those I can do without now. All my corals are nth generation captive.

So, your hobby is not my hobby. Banning captive raised corals however would be like banning house plants.

Also, and more importantly, most salt water fish are imported from countries that dont take directive from U.S consumers and arent privy to U.S laws. They can do whatever they choose with their natural resources.

Ultimately its a battle of reef enthusiast dollars in countries with cash swaying the environmental concerns of countries that export fish. That battle has raged for decades with countless endangered species.

What irks me the most though is we have so many posts from people that nuke whole tanks of fish, and just don't care. Just do a water change and put another load of fish on the Visa card and hope they live. Bet they got their dog from a puppy mill as well. That kind of indifferent waste makes me hate to be an American.

 

[ZoWhat]

Also, and more importantly, most salt water fish are imported from countries that dont take directive from U.S consumers and arent privy to U.S laws. They can do whatever they choose with their natural resources.

Last time I checked... nothing absolutely nothing.... comes into this country without the approval of U.S. Customs and the National Security Agency (NSA)

That's my point.... i guess I should have Titled this Thread differently:

Do ppl think our US Government will put a halt to our tropical fish and coral purchases?

I say eventually....Yes. Someday soon there will be major restrictions

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[MaxTremors]

Our hobby is inherently cruel to animals. There’s no getting around that, you just have to make peace with it (or delude yourself into thinking otherwise). I don’t subscribe to this sort of Christian/creationist worldview where people are the apex of creation and everything else exists for humans to use, or that human life is inherently, existentially of more value than any other life. So ethically I can’t overlook the cruelty of our hobby. Its definitely something I wrestle with, it’s a selfish and cruel hobby.

But that said, I don’t think it will ever be banned. It might become more regulated and inevitably collection sites will have temporary or even permanent bans, but there will always be aquacultured livestock and I don’t think it will ever become so over regulated as to fundamentally change the hobby. And any regulations won’t be born out of animal rights activism, or because of the cruelty of the hobby, it will be purely because of conservation (whether or not you agree with it or if there is sound science/data backing up the regulations is a whole other discussion).

 

[ZoWhat]

Our hobby is inherently cruel to animals. There’s no getting around that, you just have to make peace with it (or delude yourself into thinking otherwise). I don’t subscribe to this sort of Christian/creationist worldview where people are the apex of creation and everything else exists for humans to use, or that human life is inherently, existentially of more value than any other life. So ethically I can’t overlook the cruelty of our hobby. Its definitely something I wrestle with, it’s a selfish and cruel hobby.

But that said, I don’t think it will ever be banned. It might become more regulated and inevitably collection sites will have temporary or even permanent bans, but there will always be aquacultured livestock and I don’t think it will ever become so over regulated as to fundamentally change the hobby. And any regulations won’t be born out of animal rights activism, or because of the cruelty of the hobby, it will be purely because of conservation (whether or not you agree with it or if there is sound science/data backing up the regulations is a whole other discussion).

Nice writeup

I feel like I mis-titled, mis-questioned this Thread.

My thoughts behind developing this thread was to bring up the fact that the U.S. by far is the biggest consumer of tropical fish and coral.

Such a large question on whether eventually the U.S. Government will make Restrictions much more tight when these issues about our industry will eventually grab attention:

* Animal cruelty, the consumption of fish and coral for human entertainment....

* Misuse of natural resources

All these issues unwanted by the Globalists who desired to limit the effects of Man.

It's a deep and wide issue I believe the hobby (industry) will be facing sooner than later.



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[KrisReef]

Scrimshaw has been around for a long time, same as domesticated animals for livestock and pet purposes.

In California it is illegal to own ivory so basically ALL(?) scrimshaw has been banned since it might have come from an endangered whale or from the barbaric slaughter of an elephant that was killed simply for the tusks. That's the argument and the law currently. The Department of Fish and Wildlife is proud to confiscate ivory items and fine the people who possess them. Illegal trade in wildlife.

If the do-good people can ban ivory because it may have been harvested illegally, and if they can shut down an entire nation and tell people to stay at home until the coast is clear then deciding that pets is slavery and chickens need to live in a field and roam free isn't too far ahead.

Fact is, in some peoples opinion you are destroying the planet with your hobby and pets, so quit breathing already.
Post lux, tenebras.

Newport Beach Man Convicted for Selling Ivory Tusks - California Statewide Law Enforcement Association

LOS ANGELES – On October 10, 2018, the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW) announce the August first Los Angeles County jury conviction of Anthony Buccola, 51, of Newport Beach, and his business, Antonio’s Bella Casa, on misdemeanor charges of selling narwhal tusks. Buccola was...

cslea.com

Same rant for fossil fuels.

Enjoy them while you can.

 

[Brady4000]

Our hobby is inherently cruel to animals. There’s no getting around that, you just have to make peace with it (or delude yourself into thinking otherwise).

Ehhhh….. inherently cruel to animals… I don’t know about that. The ocean is inherently cruel to animals. The wild is inherently cruel the animals. I mean look at a pack of coyotes, one gets injured during a hunt, guess who’s going to be the next meal, and it’s not going to be a fast death.

Fish… let’s talked about my awesome mantis shrimp, he doesn’t exactly kill fast sometimes. He would do that in the wild as well.

We can say, well it’s the circle of life, they just want to eat…. What about the whale that plays hacky sack with an otter…

Shoot I found my dog the other day with a rabbit, killed it then rolled all in it… dog stunk, had to shower that dog down immediately lol. She was well fed, in fact she’s overweight lol because I give in with table scraps.

Or what about pray mantis.

Here’s a fun fact:
“Female praying mantises are famous for attacking and cannibalising their mates during or after a sexual encounter, but evidence is emerging that some males attack too, and that winning a fight is crucial for successful mating.

Sexual cannibalism is common amongst praying mantises. Typically, the female is the aggressor. Some male praying mantises go on the attack instead. They wrestle and sometimes seriously injure the females in an attempt to mate and avoid being eaten.”

Male mantises fight females to mate - but they get eaten if they lose

Female praying mantises often attack their mates during a sexual encounter, but some males attack too - and if they fail to win the fight they end up as lunch

www.google.com

Soooo I would say life in general “humans” would consider “cruel” and animals would consider it normal. But I can tell you this, my clown fish are having the time of their life hosting my zoas with no predators around. That’s just my perspective.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Pets is a multi billion dollar industry in america. I dont see it shifting of moving or going anywhere. Someone has to make uncle sam.happy. i will admit my 1st two tanks in the mid 2000s where a learning curve and having know now what i knew than i prob would have had more success.
Keeping a reef tank is deff no easy task. Almost like keeping reg house cats vs. Savanah cats or surviles.
The ppl that keep the more wild cats prob have the exp. And $ invested to keep the animal.
D

 

[MaxTremors]

Scrimshaw has been around for a long time, same as domesticated animals for livestock and pet purposes.

In California it is illegal to own ivory so basically ALL(?) scrimshaw has been banned since it might have come from an endangered whale or from the barbaric slaughter of an elephant that was killed simply for the tusks. That's the argument and the law currently. The Department of Fish and Wildlife is proud to confiscate ivory items and fine the people who possess them. Illegal trade in wildlife.

If the do-good people can ban ivory because it may have been harvested illegally, and if they can shut down an entire nation and tell people to stay at home until the coast is clear then deciding that pets is slavery and chickens need to live in a field and roam free isn't too far ahead.

Fact is, in some peoples opinion you are destroying the planet with your hobby and pets, so quit breathing already.
Post lux, tenebras.

Newport Beach Man Convicted for Selling Ivory Tusks - California Statewide Law Enforcement Association

LOS ANGELES – On October 10, 2018, the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW) announce the August first Los Angeles County jury conviction of Anthony Buccola, 51, of Newport Beach, and his business, Antonio’s Bella Casa, on misdemeanor charges of selling narwhal tusks. Buccola was...

cslea.com

Same rant for fossil fuels.

Enjoy them while you can.

I mean, let’s get it right. Its not illegal to own ivory in California, it’s illegal to sell ivory in California. Its hard for me to imagine someone taking issue with this, outlawing the sale of ivory is the only way to slow the ivory trade. If you already own ivory, you can keep it, you just can’t sell or buy new pieces of ivory. Every single animal that is slaughtered for ivory is endangered because of humans hunting them to the brink of extinction. If you ‘art’ is reliant on the body parts of endangered animals, so sorry ‘bout it, but you might need to find a different outlet for your creativity. Again, its just really hard for me to wrap my head around why anyone would have a problem with this (I mean I guess unless you’ve just got your heart set on living in a world where Narwhals don’t exist?!?).

As to what that has to do with Covid and your overly politicized and propagandized assessment of how it was managed, I have no idea.

 

[MaxTremors]

Ehhhh….. inherently cruel to animals… I don’t know about that. The ocean is inherently cruel to animals. The wild is inherently cruel the animals. I mean look at a pack of coyotes, one gets injured during a hunt, guess who’s going to be the next meal, and it’s not going to be a fast death.

Fish… let’s talked about my awesome mantis shrimp, he doesn’t exactly kill fast sometimes. He would do that in the wild as well.

We can say, well it’s the circle of life, they just want to eat…. What about the whale that plays hacky sack with an otter…

Shoot I found my dog the other day with a rabbit, killed it then rolled all in it… dog stunk, had to shower that dog down immediately lol. She was well fed, in fact she’s overweight lol because I give in with table scraps.

Or what about pray mantis.

Here’s a fun fact:
“Female praying mantises are famous for attacking and cannibalising their mates during or after a sexual encounter, but evidence is emerging that some males attack too, and that winning a fight is crucial for successful mating.

Sexual cannibalism is common amongst praying mantises. Typically, the female is the aggressor. Some male praying mantises go on the attack instead. They wrestle and sometimes seriously injure the females in an attempt to mate and avoid being eaten.”

Male mantises fight females to mate - but they get eaten if they lose

Female praying mantises often attack their mates during a sexual encounter, but some males attack too - and if they fail to win the fight they end up as lunch

www.google.com

Soooo I would say life in general “humans” would consider “cruel” and animals would consider it normal. But I can tell you this, my clown fish are having the time of there life hosting my zoas with no predators around. That’s just my perspective.

Difference is none of those natural behaviors (eating other animals, social hierarchies, mating behaviors) are played out in a comparatively tiny box for the entertainment of another species (who in many cases has to collect and kill hundreds of specimens to get just one to survive in said box). Accepting the cruel nature of the circle of life is very different than accepting the cruel (and selfish) nature of keeping wild (undomesticated, and aquacultured does not constitute ‘domesticated’) animals is a tiny, sad facsimile of their natural habitat for entertainment purposes. And I’m not saying that we shouldn’t accept it and that we shouldn’t keep aquariums, rather that it’s just something we should recognize and keep in mind as we pursue the hobby. It’s a delusional rationalization to pretend that our hobby isn’t cruel.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

It isnt. The ppl are...
D

 

[Brady4000]

Difference is none of those natural behaviors (eating other animals, social hierarchies, mating behaviors) are played out in a comparatively tiny box for the entertainment of another species (who in many cases has to collect and kill hundreds of specimens to get just one to survive in said box). Accepting the cruel nature of the circle of life is very different than accepting the cruel (and selfish) nature of keeping wild (undomesticated, and aquacultured does not constitute ‘domesticated’) animals is a tiny, sad facsimile of their natural habitat for entertainment purposes. And I’m not saying that we shouldn’t accept it and that we shouldn’t keep aquariums, rather that it’s just something we should recognize and keep in mind as we pursue the hobby. It’s a delusional rationalization to pretend that our hobby isn’t cruel.

That’s just justifying what you consider cruel over the other.

It’s ok that my dog kills rabbits for fun, and only for “selfish” reasons (because all animals on earth are selfish), and for nothing other then entertainment, that’s natural.

But if I ran out there with a stick, found me a rabbit, and someone was outside with a camera, trust me PETA would be at my door step lol, and as a full grown man, I would have to agree, I got no business beating a rabbit with a stick.

So back to my point, you think my dog would think I am being cruel? Or do you think it would be wagging it’s tale chasing down that rabbit with me? That kinda makes my dog crueler then I, no? Since I hold myself to a higher standard. Which in turn makes, the wild, the ocean the same…

I think my fish are happy, so therefore I am not being cruel, nor do I think they feel mistreated, or unhappy.

Shoot, if I went off the logic of how things being harvested is “cruel” (like the fish for my selfishness reasons). How much of what we do would we no longer be able to do. For the sole purpose of walking that line, and not making a ripple, putting everything before myself?

Here is a small list.

-Eating any animal product.
-Eat most vegetables (I don’t think they treat their labor right, and the pesticides are killing people, so that’s what you are supporting if you eat vegetables that were mass harvested)
-Drive a gas car.
-Buy Diamonds… who knows which ones where mined unlawfully.

and so on and so on (literally everything). I think life is cruel, not this hobby. But I really like meat, vegetables and saltwater aquariums lol. So no this hobby isn’t cruel, I think it fits right in with everything els, which is just living life..

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Im gonna get a diamond grill
D

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Why? Because i can! Lol
D

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

...im being serious. About the grill. Seattle grills!
D

 

[kaylajoy]

Freshwater seems crueler if just by scale... how many dead bettas do you think pass through Petsmart in a week? How many fancy goldfish live out their lives in a 3 gallon bookshelf aquarium?

The hobby is inherently cruel and it will always be so long as there's money to be to made over the well-being of the animals.

That aside yes I can see wild collection of corals and reef fish being banned eventually, for environmental reasons. And it will probably be for the best with the state of wild coral reefs. But there may be no helping that and possibly our aquariums will start to preserve species that no longer exist in the wild.

 

[MaxTremors]

That’s just justifying what you consider cruel over the other.

It’s ok that my dog kills rabbits for fun, and only for “selfish” reasons (because all animals on earth are selfish), and for nothing other then entertainment, that’s natural.

But if I ran out there with a stick, found me a rabbit, and someone was outside with a camera, trust me PETA would be at my door step lol, and as a full grown man, I would have to agree, I got no business beating a rabbit with a stick.

So back to my point, you think my dog would think I am being cruel? Or do you think it would be wagging it’s tale chasing down that rabbit with me? That kinda makes my dog crueler then I, no? Since I hold myself to a higher standard. Which in turn makes, the wild, the ocean the same…

I think my fish are happy, so therefore I am not being cruel, nor do I think they feel mistreated, or unhappy.

Shoot, if I went off the logic of how things being harvested is “cruel” (like the fish for my selfishness reasons). How much of what we do would we no longer be able to do. For the sole purpose of walking that line, and not making a ripple, putting everything before myself?

Here is a small list.

-Eating any animal product.
-Eat most vegetables (I don’t think they treat their labor right, and the pesticides are killing people, so that’s what you are supporting if you eat vegetables that were mass harvested)
-Drive a gas car.
-Buy Diamonds… who knows which ones where mined unlawfully.

and so on and so on (literally everything). I think life is cruel, not this hobby. But I really like meat, vegetables and saltwater aquariums lol. So no this hobby isn’t cruel, I think it fits right in with everything els, which is just living life..

Its not justifying one over the other, it’s simply pointing out the difference. Part of being human and having a higher functioning brain means that you are able to ponder things like ethics, feel things like empathy, and to philosophically understand the responsibility that comes with higher intelligence. You are able to contemplate and weigh the cruelty of beating a rabbit with a stick in ways that your dog is unable to. Yes, the natural world is cruel, eating meat is cruel, life is cruel, and you’re using the general cruelty of life to justify or excuse the cruelty of your hobby, it’s lazy ‘whataboutism’. My point was never a guilt trip, or to say you (or I) shouldn’t participate in our hobby, my only point is that the hobby is inherently cruel and that we shouldn’t delude ourselves into thinking otherwise (doing do only reinforces the general societal viewpoint that aquatic life is disposable). If you can’t understand the inherent cruelty and selfishness of putting a wild animal that in nature is used to swimming miles a day into a tiny box, solely for your entertainment, I don’t really know what else to say.

 

[Cell]

Is an aquarium any more cruel to fish than say a dog stuck in an apartment? Or kenneled for 8+ hrs per day? Pet birds with clipped wings? Declawed cats?

 

[RMS18]

I think there will be more bans from wild caught animals. And honestly I do have mixed feelings about this hobby. Whether I see a newbie making mistakes due to lack of experience or even a experienced reefer who has fish in a 4 foot box who should have no limits on how far they can swim. It is cruel. Some can say " well I'm protecting this fish from being dinner, well that's the way God wanted it, not us taking them from their natural habitat and placing them in non natural environment, pumping them with copper, letting them fly out of the tank because you don't have a lid, and stability issues so they look nice in out living rooms. It's a internal battle I deal with. I think the worst part is how many fish are DOA to the wholesalers and to LFS that you do not see.