POLL: Do you ever see this hobby being viewed as cruel to animals thus becoming banned/illegal?

[Lowlandreef]

I live in the Netherlands, so it's probably a lot different than in the US. Last week the government agreed on a new animal keeping law. As of 2023 it's illegal to keep animals in cages. More in detail it says that animals can't have pain or discomfort from being locked up. The law is made for livestock farming, but will also effect the pet industry. The main point is that animals can show their natural behavior as much as possible. The government is still working on how it will work exactly and what all the requirement will be. But it will influence the saltwater tank hobby for sure. I don't know how fast the US will pick up on this, but it's likely that they will eventually.

As for my personal opinion on cruelty in our reef tanks, I think it's a very difficult matter. I did buy a reef tank because I like to recreate a natural environment to keep animals in. I think it's a lot less cruel than keeping a rabbit in a cage. But I'm not a saint, and I'm guilty of keeping a (small) tang in a tank that most people consider too small. I observe my tank daily and my fish show normal/natural behavior. My livestock is based on balance in my tank, so every fish can live peaceful and show their natural behavior.

 

[Yodeling]

I think it will transition to captive bred only over time. I do think the risk to coral reef ecosystems will likely get worse if sustainable fisheries are not supported and preserving the reefs loses value in the home countries.

After watching umpteen depressing nature shows showing reef after reef bleaching and dying, an alternative and not completely crazy position is that it will become increasingly cruel to live the livestock on the reef

This exactly. The way things are going, within the next 10-20 years coral reefs and the ecosystems they support will no longer exist in the wild. Our hobby will sustain the only remaining corals and reef-dwelling animals. So, cruel? No. What's cruel is what's happening to reefs in the wild.

 

[fish farmer]

Last time I checked... nothing absolutely nothing.... comes into this country without the approval of U.S. Customs and the National Security Agency (NSA)

That's my point.... i guess I should have Titled this Thread differently:

Do ppl think our US Government will put a halt to our tropical fish and coral purchases?

I say eventually....Yes. Someday soon there will be major restrictions

.

I voted no...but would like to add that locally I could see restrictions, not based on cruelty but the potential of invasive species/diseases.

So many things are invasive, many have come from hobbies like gardening, fish keeping, even fishing. My state has a list of restricted animals, most domesticated animals are fine, non domesticated you will more than likely need a permit. Invertebrates and saltwater fish are fine for now, many, if not all temperate freshwater fish are restricted.

I'm amazed that places like Florida haven't banned saltwater fish keeping, but then again there is a large industry presence there.

 

[Timfish]

Legislatively the battle over "White Lists" (animals that can be kept) and "Black Lists" (animals that can't be kept) has been going on for decades. I wouldn't be surprised to see the reef aquarium trade to end up like the parrot trade did in the '80s where almost everything became illegal to import and demand had to be met mostly with captive raised animals.

As to the question are we being cruel to the animals we're keeping I don't see teh practice of keeping fish and corals inherently cruel as properly cared for fish and even some corals can be shown to be living longer than their wild counterparts. But just like with other animals not everyone keeping fish and corals are doing what's best for the animals in their care.

 

[Brady4000]

Yes, the natural world is cruel, eating meat is cruel, life is cruel, and you’re using the general cruelty of life to justify or excuse the cruelty of your hobby, it’s lazy ‘whataboutism’.

No not justifying, just pointing out a scale of what we as humans “consider” cruelty, life in general dose not.

I would consider this hobby less cruel then eating animal products. Driving automobile, even eating vegetables from farmers etc.

It’s cruel that my house takes real estate animals could be using. It’s cruel that I kill mosquitos for just trying to eat with a bright blue light, and it’s cruel I put poison out for rats when they got in my house. I mean I can’t even read a book, if a tree didn’t die.

Everything we do to an extent should be considered cruel. But life in general is, humans and animals.

Now that we established, “everything” we do can be considered cruel, on a scale of cruelty for a reefer keeping a tank, I would give it a low rating on the scale.

IMO, I mean some people really like reading books lol.

 

[fish farmer]

No not justifying, just pointing out a scale of what we as humans “consider” cruelty, life in general dose not.

I would consider this hobby less cruel then eating animal products. Driving automobile, even eating vegetables from farmers etc.

It’s cruel that my house takes real estate animals could be using. It’s cruel that I kill mosquitos for just trying to eat with a bright blue light, and it’s cruel I put poison out for rats when they got in my house. I mean I can’t even read a book, if a tree didn’t die.

Everything we do to an extent should be considered cruel. But life in general is, humans and animals.

Now that we established, “everything” we do can be considered cruel, on a scale of cruelty for a reefer keeping a tank, I would give it a low rating on the scale.

IMO, I mean some people really like reading books lol.

I had a grackle take up nesting in a corner above my deck. I was going to seal it up before they got to laying...too late heard the little peeps, my wife actually said this is why I love you since I was letting them stay. Fast forward a couple of weeks, my wife was getting a rash/insect bites and I started to see little mites on the deck when I touched it.

We did the internet search last night...bird mites.....so now I'm shopping for pesticides and just waiting for the last baby to leave so I can pull the nest and seal up the side of the house. I was pondering the poor birds with all those mites on them.....then the wife said...What about me?

I really wanted to go fishing today and practice catch and release, but off to buy some pesticide.

 

[Forty-Two]

I voted yes it will become illegal. This is one of the reasons I’m working to establish a tank now. I assume it will occur as ‘going forward’ (ie: establishment of new tanks will become increasingly harder until it’s made to be illegal/impossible however existing tanks will be left alone)

I base this forecast on the following:

1) I’m seeing things happen in the world that I wouldn’t have believed 10 years ago that it would happen. What I define as extreme ideals and view points are creeping into the mainstream and becoming law. I see this trend continuing (example above regarding Netherlands new pet laws is a good example)

2) As pollution and global warming take hold and natural reefs degrade - there will be less tolerance for use of resources for recreational purposes. Society will want to centralize living specimens and won’t ‘trust’ them to private owners. It will generally become more and more frowned upon to own exotic species.

I don’t believe the arguments regarding equating reef tanks to cats and dogs. The reason is that cats and dogs are seen as ‘human companions’. There are a number of recent articles that seem to conclude that somehow dogs are ‘made’ to be with humans (cats the same). Reef fish and corals however are exotic - and I think those are the areas that will be regulated

 

[TnFishwater98]

Cancel life is coming!

 

[davidcalgary29]

Let's be honest here, for the majority of people fish, inverts, coral, and other marine lives are viewed as much more expendable than any other sort of pet and through those lenses I can see this hobby as cruel. Yeah you're going the treat the $1000 black tang as precious, getting worried when you see it not eating and making a post the instant you see it lose an ounce of weight; but few people would do the same of it was a $5 damsel or chromis.

I know not everyone's like that, but a large number of people are and from there I see cruelty.

Them's fighting words for us nano/pico owners. How many times a day do I check on the web cam to see if my lone cerith snail in my jar is okay? And if the tuxedo urchin is carrying away my clove polyps and zoas...AGAIN? The answer: too many. And let's be real: the secret life of our inverts is far more interesting than whatever frivolity is being posted by our Facebook "friends", anyway.

 

[KrisReef]

I mean, let’s get it right. Its not illegal to own ivory in California, it’s illegal to sell ivory in California. Its hard for me to imagine someone taking issue with this, outlawing the sale of ivory is the only way to slow the ivory trade. If you already own ivory, you can keep it, you just can’t sell or buy new pieces of ivory. Every single animal that is slaughtered for ivory is endangered because of humans hunting them to the brink of extinction. If you ‘art’ is reliant on the body parts of endangered animals, so sorry ‘bout it, but you might need to find a different outlet for your creativity. Again, its just really hard for me to wrap my head around why anyone would have a problem with this (I mean I guess unless you’ve just got your heart set on living in a world where Narwhals don’t exist?!?).

As to what that has to do with Covid and your overly politicized and propagandized assessment of how it was managed, I have no idea.

Thank you Max, you have proven my point completely.

Your reefing hobby ends up killing 99.9% of the wildlife collected in your tanks. The only survivors are fish and corals that are released (probably illegally) back into the wild. The Lionfish in the Carribean, Caulerpa taxifolia in California and the Mediterranean are just two examples of how bad the hobby is. This hobby is destroying the planet,.... or at least that is what many will tell you.

I don't believe it, but I do see how people give an inch and loose a reef.


Yup, you are correct about ivory sales, but did you know you need a CITIES permit to carry ivory jewlery on vacation to a foreign country? The CDFW wildlife officers went to an antique business with the Norwhale tusks on display and offered to purchase them. The seller did not have the proper paperwork to demonstrate that the tusks were pre-ban so they got their wall displays confiscated and a huge fine.

The question was, will this hobby become banned or illegal, and I am saying that the groundwork to get the hobby banned has already been laid and is hidden in international treaties and "compassionate" animal anti-cruelty laws.


Please don't get moral with me about my deadly hobby. I'm going to go kill a head of lettuce and a cow now as I eat a hamburger for lunch.

 

[davidcalgary29]

But I'm not a saint, and I'm guilty of keeping a (small) tang in a tank that most people consider too small. I observe my tank daily and my fish show normal/natural behavior. My livestock is based on balance in my tank, so every fish can live peaceful and show their natural behavior.

I recently acquired a RSM 250 (no tangs, though, and no plans to get one), and managed to get my hands on Red Sea's useless "The Complete Reef System" DVD a few days ago. I was vastly amused to see that the DT tank in the video -- a 33 gallon 130 MAX -- has two yellow tangs in it. I'm keeping this historic piece of aquarist abuse as critical evidence to buy off the Tang Police when they come for me for keeping two dwarf angelfish in my 65g tank.

 

[jeffchapok]

I can envision it being banned eventually. But I disagree with the premise. Cruel? My fish get 2-3 squares per day without haven't to hunt for it, while at the same time mostly not having to worry about being eaten. I should have it so well.

 

[KrisReef]

I live in the Netherlands, so it's probably a lot different than in the US. Last week the government agreed on a new animal keeping law. As of 2023 it's illegal to keep animals in cages. More in detail it says that animals can't have pain or discomfort from being locked up. The law is made for livestock farming, but will also effect the pet industry. The main point is that animals can show their natural behavior as much as possible. The government is still working on how it will work exactly and what all the requirement will be. But it will influence the saltwater tank hobby for sure. I don't know how fast the US will pick up on this, but it's likely that they will eventually.

As for my personal opinion on cruelty in our reef tanks, I think it's a very difficult matter. I did buy a reef tank because I like to recreate a natural environment to keep animals in. I think it's a lot less cruel than keeping a rabbit in a cage. But I'm not a saint, and I'm guilty of keeping a (small) tang in a tank that most people consider too small. I observe my tank daily and my fish show normal/natural behavior. My livestock is based on balance in my tank, so every fish can live peaceful and show their natural behavior.

Another fantastic post! Thank you @Adriaen
Wow, Laws made by the woken folk are changing the planet. This is great news. Who could have guessed it would go so far so fast?

If the entire planet evolved into what it is now, then how come keeping an animal as a pet or a coral or fish in an aquarium isn't considered a normal part of our evolutionary pathway? You stated that your animals exhibit normal behaviour, which is a falicy. (There is nothing normal about an oceanic fish being held captive in a glasss box. is there?)
They only appear to enjoy the interaction with the reef keeper in the same way pets will snuggle up to their owners. This is all very bad and should be regulated to insure that every pet is vaccinated and is free to pee where they want too.

So, we've lost the cages and soon they will come for the aquariums. The end is near.


OK Folks, I am out of line and I am going to report myself to the mods to keep this thread nice. It is a sad topic and it makes my blood boil a bit, but then I go and look at my captive tangs begging for food, my corals growing towards the light, and check on the Lemon peel to make certain he isn't eating the LPS and chill out! I've been reported! I did myself!

 

[Hermie]

The meat industry is cruel to animals and it's never banned. So no I don't.

 

[Lowlandreef]

I recently acquired a RSM 250 (no tangs, though, and no plans to get one), and managed to get my hands on Red Sea's useless "The Complete Reef System" DVD a few days ago. I was vastly amused to see that the DT tank in the video -- a 33 gallon 130 MAX -- has two yellow tangs in it. I'm keeping this historic piece of aquarist abuse as critical evidence to buy off the Tang Police when they come for me for keeping two dwarf angelfish in my 65g tank.

Red Sea doesn't set the right example. I think I even saw official Red Sea promotion photo's of the Red Sea nano with a blue hippo tang in it

 

[Lowlandreef]

Another fantastic post! Thank you @Adriaen
Wow, Laws made by the woken folk are changing the planet. This is great news. Who could have guessed it would go so far so fast?

If the entire planet evolved into what it is now, then how come keeping an animal as a pet or a coral or fish in an aquarium isn't considered a normal part of our evolutionary pathway? You stated that your animals exhibit normal behaviour, which is a falicy. (There is nothing normal about an oceanic fish being held captive in a glasss box. is there?)
They only appear to enjoy the interaction with the reef keeper in the same way pets will snuggle up to their owners. This is all very bad and should be regulated to insure that every pet is vaccinated and is free to pee where they want too.

So, we've lost the cages and soon they will come for the aquariums. The end is near.


OK Folks, I am out of line and I am going to report myself to the mods to keep this thread nice. It is a sad topic and it makes my blood boil a bit, but then I go and look at my captive tangs begging for food, my corals growing towards the light, and check on the Lemon peel to make certain he isn't eating the LPS and chill out! I've been reported! I did myself!

Normal is a subjective word, so I get your point. Of course it isn't normal to put a fish in a glass box. For me it's more the comparison to captive animals. Tigers in the zoo that walk in a circle, rabbits in a small cage that only move to eat, parrots in a cage where they can climb but can't fly. I think that's very sad and not normal behavior for an animal.
My wrasse sleeping in the sand at night and all day looking in the rocks for small crustaceans & my blenny picking at algae all day is for me considered "normal" behavior. That is partially behavior they would show in the wild. In that perspective is a reef tank a somewhat good environment for fish to behave as they should in the wild. But I totally get it if people disagree with me, keeping (exotic) pets is in someways selfish...

 

[davidcalgary29]

Red Sea doesn't set the right example. I think I even saw official Red Sea promotion photo's of the Red Sea nano with a blue hippo tang in it

I just rewatched their video for their instructions on "selecting fish". The narrator intones that "no more than 35cm of fish" should be included in the MAX series. The camera then pans to show three yellow tangs in a tank. I'll be generous and suggest that they showed them in a 250, and not a 130, but it's hard to tell. That video is full of shocking suggestions.

 

[MaxTremors]

Legislatively the battle over "White Lists" (animals that can be kept) and "Black Lists" (animals that can't be kept) has been going on for decades. I wouldn't be surprised to see the reef aquarium trade to end up like the parrot trade did in the '80s where almost everything became illegal to import and demand had to be met mostly with captive raised animals.

As to the question are we being cruel to the animals we're keeping I don't see teh practice of keeping fish and corals inherently cruel as properly cared for fish and even some corals can be shown to be living longer than their wild counterparts. But just like with other animals not everyone keeping fish and corals are doing what's best for the animals in their care.

The question is whether the hobby, collectively is cruel, to which the answer is objectively yes. I think most experienced hobbyists aren’t really the biggest contributors to that cruelty (I do think that no matter what there is some inherent cruelty in keeping any animal in a cage, but in our specific hobby, most of the cruelty that is of real concern isn’t coming from experienced aquarists), the real contributors, or at least the contributors of concern, are inexperienced or careless hobbyists, people who view aquatic life as disposable, collectors and importers, chop shops, etc. I do think overall the hobby is moving towards a less cruel, more sustainable way of operating, but it’s a slow move.

 

[Lowlandreef]

I just rewatched their video for their instructions on "selecting fish". The narrator intones that "no more than 35cm of fish" should be included in the MAX series. The camera then pans to show three yellow tangs in a tank. I'll be generous and suggest that they showed them in a 250, and not a 130, but it's hard to tell. That video is full of shocking suggestions.

Yeah I agree, let's hope the beginner aquarist doesn't do the same thing...

Here's the video of the hippo tang in the red sea max nano. You can see it well at 0:46

 

[bigjgmac]

Do you ever see this hobby being viewed as cruel to animals thus becoming banned/illegal?

The libertarians will be up in arms. I’m conflicted. I do love the hobby, but also feel that these animals are likely better off left in the oceans. I try to buy aquacultured livestock whenever possible.