POLL: Do you ever see this hobby being viewed as cruel to animals thus becoming banned/illegal?

[ElussssvReefSD]

I don’t think regulation and restrictions are always automatically bad. Letting everyone do whatever they want without restriction might sound good on paper, that is until you lose your house after getting screwed over by a bank or have a corporation dump millions of gallons of toxic waste in your backyard *cough* Piney Point *cough cough*.

And whether you agree with it or not, one of the silver linings out of the Hawaii ban is that there are now more aquacultured Yellow Tangs available now then there would’ve been otherwise.

I doubt that species would be available in the numbers it is now, in a sustainable (or profitable) way, without the supply of relatively cheap wild-caught specimens being cut off.

I believe the Hawaiian ban and the resulting rise of the aquacultured Yellow Tang is a good example of where this hobby is headed in general when it comes to wild-caught livestock. If I were a betting man, I’d say a ban on Australian ornamental exports would be the next big domino to fall.

Rising prices suck, and no one wants to pay them. But as painful as it may be to pay $100 for a fish that used to cost $30, the flip side is maybe it’ll make the prospective hobbyist more careful as it’s a larger investment.

***This in no way is meant to imply that the amount of money you have has any bearing whatsoever in your reefkeeping skills. Just that higher cost might give pause to ppl that aren‘t serious about the hobby, lowering mortality overall.***

I’m not for knee-jerk, over the top reactions, but common-sense restrictions seem reasonable to me in the long term. Who knows, maybe one day scientists will turn to us hobbyists for help in coral propagation once the reefs have all but disappeared in the wild… we could be doing science y’all!

 

[Forty-Two]

Considering the fact that for every fish caught in the ocean, 10,000 of its brothers and sisters have died - the argument is lost on me. I think the supply chain, and the people catching/importing/shipping fish need to be mindful. But lets face it lol. No one here 'needs' a reef tank. This is a rich person's 'hobby'. I always wondered why keeping living things its called 'a hobby'.

Hmm - until recently I would have agreed with you - however my opinion on this topic is changing.

Sadly - the oceans are dying. Hypoxia zones are growing rapidly in addition to reefs dying. Soon - there is a good chance that for a short time reef tanks will be all that remains of a once abundant and beautiful organisms.

I say a short time because it remains to be seen whether society and it’s accoutrements will survive (such as power) in order support reef tanks in peoples homes as a last resort/reserve of these creatures.

I do see a concerted effort by governments now starting to learn to care for corals in captivity foe this very reason. We all see the writing on the wall and know what’s coming.

 

[AlexandraDreadlocksPanda]

No more so than any other species of pet ownership.

Not true really, is it? If people saw how many fish died compared to the ones that make the collection/sorting/transport/wholesale/retail/home aquaria journey, they’d be shocked. There’s a very big difference between collecting wild animals compared to say a well loved domestic dog having a litter of puppies that go on to living homes. Sooner or later the hobby will get lambasted for this in top of the conservational aspects.

 

[lxxnp1234]

No. but when I frag a coral, I can feel it's hurt.

 

[Forty-Two]

Not true really, is it? If people saw how many fish died compared to the ones that make the collection/sorting/transport/wholesale/retail/home aquaria journey, they’d be shocked. There’s a very big difference between collecting wild animals compared to say a well loved domestic dog having a litter of puppies that go on to living homes. Sooner or later the hobby will get lambasted for this in top of the conservational aspects.

Good point. I wonder in my mind what the price point is where the suppliers are making enough per fish to put in the proper mechanisms to have a better mortality rates - where the losses would motivate them to put in more mechanisms to ensure survival.

 

[brahm]

Not true really, is it? If people saw how many fish died compared to the ones that make the collection/sorting/transport/wholesale/retail/home aquaria journey, they’d be shocked. There’s a very big difference between collecting wild animals compared to say a well loved domestic dog having a litter of puppies that go on to living homes. Sooner or later the hobby will get lambasted for this in top of the conservational aspects.

Same thing could be said about how many cats and dogs are put down Each year. (Approx 1.5 million a year) what makes this hobby odd is we feed our pets the same things we keep . Shrimp, fish, etc. it’s how reefs work everything eats each other. We don’t think twice feeding a silverside, a cube of mysis or frozen clams to keep our corals, anemones and fish a live. We remove (kill) things deemed as pests. Is a BTA and an aptasia much different in the wild? There also is a bit of a separation when it comes to fish tanks as we consume fish, urchins, shrimp, clams, eels etc on a regular basis so it’s easier to detach.

 

[GHOSTLY]

Well I find keeping animals is bad. But I like them so at least I’ll keep it in the best care do st least they have a good life

 

[MnFish1]

Hmm - until recently I would have agreed with you - however my opinion on this topic is changing.

Sadly - the oceans are dying. Hypoxia zones are growing rapidly in addition to reefs dying. Soon - there is a good chance that for a short time reef tanks will be all that remains of a once abundant and beautiful organisms.

I say a short time because it remains to be seen whether society and it’s accoutrements will survive (such as power) in order support reef tanks in peoples homes as a last resort/reserve of these creatures.

I do see a concerted effort by governments now starting to learn to care for corals in captivity foe this very reason. We all see the writing on the wall and know what’s coming.

Sadly, SOME parts of the ocean are dying. The problem is not reef fish keeping, the problem is cities and communities in California, Florida, and other beach communities around the world that just dump stuff Into the ocean. Its communities on the Mississippi and other rivers that just dump stuff into the river - and then into the ocean. my GUESS - is that the US policies are quite a bit better overall for the oceans than many other countries around the world.

 

[Forty-Two]

Sadly, SOME parts of the ocean are dying. The problem is not reef fish keeping, the problem is cities and communities in California, Florida, and other beach communities around the world that just dump stuff Into the ocean. Its communities on the Mississippi and other rivers that just dump stuff into the river - and then into the ocean. my GUESS - is that the US policies are quite a bit better overall for the oceans than many other countries around the world.

That doesn’t appear to be the issue. Hypoxia is caused by rising temperatures in the water which cannot hold the same levels of oxygen - which is causing mass die-off’s.
The problem is - it’s spreading and getting worse year by year. Presumably there is a tipping point by which a chain reaction will occur killing massive swaths of ocean life/most of the ocean life.
Playing the blame game won’t help too much to solve the problem- we’re already past that point where it will do any good.

 

[MnFish1]

Not true really, is it? If people saw how many fish died compared to the ones that make the collection/sorting/transport/wholesale/retail/home aquaria journey, they’d be shocked. There’s a very big difference between collecting wild animals compared to say a well loved domestic dog having a litter of puppies that go on to living homes. Sooner or later the hobby will get lambasted for this in top of the conservational aspects.

I certainly do not have all the answers, and I think regulation is also not always harmful if it makes sense. There are people 'out there' that think 'it is cruel to keep fish in tanks - period'. They do not care about the supply chain, or deaths, or quarantine protocols. They just think 'its cruel'.

If people saw how many sharks, dolphins, etc are killed by long lines, large nets just so we can eat tuna, they would be amazed. If people saw how many Birds are killed by wind turbines (and cats, and hitting windows) they would be amazed, etc etc. Does anyone know how many fish are killed each year for food? The answer: It has been estimated that between 0.97 to 2.7 trillion fish are caught from the wild and killed globally every year - I always wonder - how many of those dead fish are actually 'used for food'.

I am going to go against the grain here. If (and I think its not this bad) for every 1 fish that makes it to a tank and lives 9 die, It does not bother me. They are fish. Fish are killed on the reef every day. When they spawn <1% of their offspring survive. I know, I know 'fish are pets' - but IMHO, in the ocean they are not 'pets' and my guess is that in tanks there is probably less stress, danger, etc than on the reef. Once they get into your tank, and it becomes your responsibility to take care of them - THEN they are a PET, then they assume some characteristic that 'makes them special'. I hope that is this 9:1 ratio is true - that it improves dramatically.

Coral is a different topic. I think coral harvesting will be illegal at some point soon. At that point - the same thing will happen as what happened during the Indonesian ban - the prices will skyrocket, people here will complain about 'market manipulation', etc etc. But IMHO, it will happen.

My solution to 90 percent of the reef deaths in our tanks/in this hobby - overstocking, and over buying. If you have a nice stable functioning tank, you do not need 300 frags - because in a couple years you will not have a tank (it will be overgrown). Pick some you like frag them and move them around until you have a nice tank. Likewise with fish. How many times do we see 'My tank just crashed, when can I add back 10 fish?'. IMHO people need to be much more careful when something (a crash) happens - i.e. we had a power outage lost a lot of fish and I decided I'm not just going to replace everything - I waited 6 months to see what would come back - and during that time installed a generator - so I would never have to go through that hell (for me) again. To me the statement 'nothing good ever happens quickly in this hobby' is somewhat overused - but in the same vein - if something bad happens, analyze and correct (whether knowledge or other fall backs) slowly - so it doesnt happen again.

 

[MnFish1]

That doesn’t appear to be the issue. Hypoxia is caused by rising temperatures in the water which cannot hold the same levels of oxygen - which is causing mass die-off’s.
The problem is - it’s spreading and getting worse year by year. Presumably there is a tipping point by which a chain reaction will occur killing massive swaths of ocean life/most of the ocean life.
Playing the blame game won’t help too much to solve the problem- we’re already past that point where it will do any good.

It is interesting - on the reef, "On the average reef we typically see daily temperature variation of around 2-6 °F. ... The temperature frequently fluctuated 4-6 °F within minutes, and many times per day, though the corals were not exposed to elevated temperature for more than a few hours per day."

In the 20th century - average ocean temperature has risen 0.14 degrees/decade.

I don't want to turn this into a climate change debate - because I agree with you - but I would suggest from my reading - that most of the hypoxic zones are due to bacterial overgrowth due to pollution/run off from agriculture and waste products in the water. Not 'temperature'. To turn it back to the subject of the OP - the way I see it working is 'oceans are dying', 'people are taking coral and fish out of the ocean', thus 'this is part of the problem' and it needs to be stopped. When in fact the huge problem is pollution in the water, plastic in the water and other contaminants - that are much less likely to be fixed. Does anyone think the hawaiian or Indonesian ban 'helped the oceans'?

 

[olonmv]

As long as puppymills exist, this hobby will be ok.

 

[Cool tangs]

My personal thoughts on this is that,

Reefing hobby itself will never be illegal, but capturing wild species from specific regions will yes. Thus making filling our tanks harder.

Now is it cruel, that would be a endless debate as everyone would have a different opinion. Everyone is entitled to there own beliefs.

For me i think its not cruel if we create the correct environment for our creatures to servive then they will probs have a better shot at living there full life in an aquarium then the wild.

Again this is probs more species specific, we have amazibg tech and support these days.

Sorry i forgot to mention. Cruel when we are stressing out a natural habitat for our hobby. But there is far worse industries out there destroying the planet. At least we arw trying to nurture these creatures, not kill them.

In australia our reefs are protected and collecters have limits and zones.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I've gotta split the question.

Yes our hobby is Already being demonized by social justice warriors who have little to no understanding of it.

But No, I don't believe fish keeping will ever become illegal. Besides being a massive overreach of the granted powers of government, there is no benifet to whatever legislative body could be tapped to make such a determination. There's no money behind it to fund the sort of campaign that would be needed to get law makers do do anything.

 

[Cool tangs]

My thoughts behind developing this thread was to bring up the fact that the U.S. by far is the biggest consumer of tropical fish and coral.

Such a large question on whether eventually the U.S. Government will make Restrictions much more tight when these issues about our industry will eventually grab attention:

* Animal cruelty, the consumption of fish and coral for human entertainment....

* Misuse of natural resources

All these issues unwanted by the Globalists who desired to limit the effects of Man.

It's a deep and wide issue I believe the hobby (industry) will be facing sooner than later.



.

Totally agree with this, my neighbour who is a coral collecter/wholesaler was asked by a company in america if he could send 6 thousand boxes of coral to the states per week. He saud flat out no! Its just insane that someone could even think that possible.

 

[redsea146]

The question is whether the hobby, collectively is cruel, to which the answer is objectively yes. I think most experienced hobbyists aren’t really the biggest contributors to that cruelty (I do think that no matter what there is some inherent cruelty in keeping any animal in a cage, but in our specific hobby, most of the cruelty that is of real concern isn’t coming from experienced aquarists), the real contributors, or at least the contributors of concern, are inexperienced or careless hobbyists, people who view aquatic life as disposable, collectors and importers, chop shops, etc. I do think overall the hobby is moving towards a less cruel, more sustainable way of operating, but it’s a slow move.

10-4

 

[NoahLikesFish]

i dont think it will become illegal but possibly, pessure from people on forums and draconian tank guidelines will self regulate the industry. i am highly agianst this.

 

[Tonycass12]

No I don't ever see this hobby being the reason for any bans. Now collection practices i can absolutly see causing bans like they already have all around the world like Hawaii and live rock collection in tonga and the south pacific.

 

[N.Sreefer]

They'd have alot of problems enforcing any sort of ban on private ownership of aquaria the black market would just make corals more valuable and suddenly organized crime would have a big interest in aquaria. If I seen any sort of local ban I would start giving away easy coral frags to beginners and try getting as many people into the hobby as I could. And I would boobytrap my tank with a claymore....

 

[NewYorkReefer1988]

Anything is possible in our current, overly sensitive, “clown world” culture.