Poor Man's Nutrients Control - Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer

[Ponraj A]

Thanks Ponraj.
Would a recommendation be to start with bigger size (crushed coral / golfball size) media and eliminating finer "matrix" as a Lesson Learned for others to prevent this?
My thoughts were to avoid clogging yet still provide enough "soak time" in the anoxic side and avoid some the early lessons shared here with H2S and pack-offs.
My reactor produces a steady slow rate of N2 bubbles (1 every 3 seconds @ 6L/hr) - I'm still waiting to see if the sizing can keep up fully with how I (my kids) feed and get away from 10-15% weekly water changes.

Be patient and ensure the flow is like a thin stream without interruption. As several others suggested 1st chamber begin with coarser media or also you can fill both the chambers with coarser media (which will also show the results).
After making so many trials, lessons I have learnt was
-Dont use finer media
-Keep the flow constant
-Don't over dose any carbon (Vinegar/Vodka)
-Reduce the carbon dose into the reactor on a weekly basis after testing nitrate from the tank water. Concept is to minimise the dosage of carbon with constant reactor output and have stable nitrate at tank water. Once the reactor get matured it even can handle the nitrates in tank water without carbon dosing.
-In my experience continuous dosing of carbon (even after the tank nitrates are down to the level where we want) causing bacteria slime inside the reactor and it start to spread to your sump. Soon after it happens it clogs the reactor and we have to clean the reactor once it happens.

 

[Warren_Jakarta]

Be patient and ensure the flow is like a thin stream without interruption. As several others suggested 1st chamber begin with coarser media or also you can fill both the chambers with coarser media (which will also show the results).
After making so many trials, lessons I have learnt was
-Don't use finer media
-Keep the flow constant
-Don't over dose any carbon (Vinegar/Vodka)
-Reduce the carbon dose into the reactor on a weekly basis after testing nitrate from the tank water. Concept is to minimise the dosage of carbon with constant reactor output and have stable nitrate at tank water. Once the reactor get matured it even can handle the nitrates in tank water without carbon dosing.
-In my experience continuous dosing of carbon (even after the tank nitrates are down to the level where we want) causing bacteria slime inside the reactor and it start to spread to your sump. Soon after it happens it clogs the reactor and we have to clean the reactor once it happens.

Thanks Ponraj; your summary benefits the smoothness of the learning curve for Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer.

 

[Tmmste]

Thanks Ponraj.
Would a recommendation be to start with bigger size (crushed coral / golfball size) media and eliminating finer "matrix" as a Lesson Learned for others to prevent this?
My thoughts were to avoid clogging yet still provide enough "soak time" in the anoxic side and avoid some the early lessons shared here with H2S and pack-offs.
My reactor produces a steady slow rate of N2 bubbles (1 every 3 seconds @ 6L/hr) - I'm still waiting to see if the sizing can keep up fully with how I (my kids) feed and get away from 10-15% weekly water changes.

I solely use golfball size media.. does not matter. No3 will drop fast nevertheless.

 

[Warren_Jakarta]

Thanks Tmmste - it was your "Tank size is 400L net, reactor volume is 15L (filled with chunks of live rock/siporax 25mm/yellow ceramic balls)." post that helped drive my build specs.
I'm feeding my live rock/spheres DND reactor from an existing bio-pellet reactor. The thought here was to "jump-start" assist the anoxic portion of the reactor. I'm getting the same kind of timeline and results that you did. Were you able find a point where you wouldn't be running a skimmer 24/7?

 

[Beonedge]

Be patient and ensure the flow is like a thin stream without interruption. As several others suggested 1st chamber begin with coarser media or also you can fill both the chambers with coarser media (which will also show the results).
After making so many trials, lessons I have learnt was
-Dont use finer media
-Keep the flow constant
-Don't over dose any carbon (Vinegar/Vodka)
-Reduce the carbon dose into the reactor on a weekly basis after testing nitrate from the tank water. Concept is to minimise the dosage of carbon with constant reactor output and have stable nitrate at tank water. Once the reactor get matured it even can handle the nitrates in tank water without carbon dosing.
-In my experience continuous dosing of carbon (even after the tank nitrates are down to the level where we want) causing bacteria slime inside the reactor and it start to spread to your sump. Soon after it happens it clogs the reactor and we have to clean the reactor once it happens.

Additional tip - if reactor become clogged , just reverse water flow for few hrs and flow will be restored ;

 

[Tmmste]

Thanks Tmmste - it was your "Tank size is 400L net, reactor volume is 15L (filled with chunks of live rock/siporax 25mm/yellow ceramic balls)." post that helped drive my build specs.
I'm feeding my live rock/spheres DND reactor from an existing bio-pellet reactor. The thought here was to "jump-start" assist the anoxic portion of the reactor. I'm getting the same kind of timeline and results that you did. Were you able find a point where you wouldn't be running a skimmer 24/7?

No I never found a sweetspot as I tend to forget to dose or test.. or both. Well, for the pH in the reef I decided to add a skimmer to complement the DND. I just see the reactor as 1 of the components for managing a reef.. it removes No3 very well, and it prevents slime build-up in de display/technique. You can combine it with any other flavor in reefing. Do not expect anything magic from it, I sometimes forget to dose a week.. then bolus dose 20ml daily for a week to lower No3 if needed.. if you don't dose.. it doesn't do anything. Good luck!!

 

[Warren_Jakarta]

No I never found a sweetspot as I tend to forget to dose or test.. or both. Well, for the pH in the reef I decided to add a skimmer to complement the DND. I just see the reactor as 1 of the components for managing a reef.. it removes No3 very well, and it prevents slime build-up in de display/technique. You can combine it with any other flavor in reefing. Do not expect anything magic from it, I sometimes forget to dose a week.. then bolus dose 20ml daily for a week to lower No3 if needed.. if you don't dose.. it doesn't do anything. Good luck!!

Yep - thanks for the confirmation - I dosed today since the bubbles stopped after yesterdays 20% water change (cleaning out my sump - long story about roller filters, holiday time in Indonesia, trust-me type Smiling Vendors etc.) It will be a part of the equipment roster. Thanks for taking the time to update - "if you don't dose.. it doesn't do anything". Thanks again.

 

[Tmmste]

Yep - thanks for the confirmation - I dosed today since the bubbles stopped after yesterdays 20% water change (cleaning out my sump - long story about roller filters, holiday time in Indonesia, trust-me type Smiling Vendors etc.) It will be a part of the equipment roster. Thanks for taking the time to update - "if you don't dose.. it doesn't do anything". Thanks again.

Welcome.. also the flow does not need to be very slow, depends on the size of the reactor though.. the effluent speed in my reactor is now around 12 liter per hour... the thing is 15L so the dwell time is a bit more than 1 hour. Works perfectly fine..

 

[DancingWind]

I understand what you are trying to say, but even if that was the case it doesn't mean a nitrate reactor wont help with nuisance algae as nitrate is generally what most people struggle with. I would also say that MOST forms of filtration shouldn't be solely relied on and the best approach is always a mix of 2 or 3 filtration items.

However, you will likely find that this kind of reactor can and does reduce phosphate, although not as efficiently as it will nitrate. To get the nitrifying bacteria we are adding a carbon source (vinegar or vodka etc.) and that carbon source will also encourage the growth of phosphate eating bacteria.

It does and it does not.
Nitrates convert to Gas and "go away". No3 is used as an energy source.
Phosphorus is not a gas and thus it does not 'go away'.
It can certainly be removed from water column and stored in proteins (aka bacteria, plants and other living things) but it stays in the tank unless physically removed. That is why although this is fantastic idea for removing nitrates I'm pretty sure you will eventually need other methods for phosphate control.
+ should it all that accumulating biomass die for some reason it will release all the phosphorus back into the water column.

Edit: what you could do to reduce phosphates is:
1) to somehow artificially increase NO3 and only no3 (no idea atm how to do that)
2) over feed reactor with carbon
3) collect all the extra bacteria with a filter sock on the effluent
4) wash the sock away.

though at that point it looks like a quite a bit more complicated refugium farming ...

 

[Sparky88]

Is the media important or is just well flowing media of any kind good enough?

 

[DancingWind]

Is the media important or is just well flowing media of any kind good enough?

TLDR version:
Yes but only its cloging potential - dense media clogs and becomes useless

 

[1mbrews8]

so just started mine and 1st dose of bacteria was today... but having an issue with flow.

Mine looks great for around 30sec to a min, then stops, with a few randow drips, for 30 sec, then flows, etc.

My inlet is about 1" higher than outlet, reactor is level, nothing clogging yet since just started bacteria a few min ago.

The top to the export side has no air hole, the one on intake has small hole for vodka, etc eventually.

Tubing on inlet is 3/8, out same BUT with airline reducer in the end.

Any ideas??

 

[Ponraj A]

so just started mine and 1st dose of bacteria was today... but having an issue with flow.

Mine looks great for around 30sec to a min, then stops, with a few randow drips, for 30 sec, then flows, etc.

My inlet is about 1" higher than outlet, reactor is level, nothing clogging yet since just started bacteria a few min ago.

The top to the export side has no air hole, the one on intake has small hole for vodka, etc eventually.

Tubing on inlet is 3/8, out same BUT with airline reducer in the end.

Any ideas??

may be you can open fully the flow and run for some times with watching, if the water flows out evenly for a period of time, then all is ok. if the water flows through the hole at inlet then you have to rearrange the media inside for even flow before adjusting to drip.
I hope it helps.

 

[1mbrews8]

may be you can open fully the flow and run for some times with watching, if the water flows out evenly for a period of time, then all is ok. if the water flows through the hole at inlet then you have to rearrange the media inside for even flow before adjusting to drip.
I hope it helps.

So starting vinegar today (no vodka at the moment) (and don't really like buying alcohol since I work with kids and don't want parents/kids seeing me getting wrong idea lol)

Can I just use vinegar?

anyway, trying to see about how much to dose. My total water vol is prob 330g and the reactor is 3" and about 26" high not including bottom hooked together part.

Reactor has been running off and on with a few issues causing the off lol, but dosing mb7 regularly..

 

[Ponraj A]

So starting vinegar today (no vodka at the moment) (and don't really like buying alcohol since I work with kids and don't want parents/kids seeing me getting wrong idea lol)

Can I just use vinegar?

anyway, trying to see about how much to dose. My total water vol is prob 330g and the reactor is 3" and about 26" high not including bottom hooked together part.

Reactor has been running off and on with a few issues causing the off lol, but dosing mb7 regularly..

Using Vinegar alone is also fine and you can start with may be 4ml a day for a week (splitted by 1ml/6hrs is more efficient,) also dosing at once will work. Upon testing the output of reactor after a week you can increase 2ml and so on. Don't increase the carbon dosing further once you have seen reduction of nitrate from your reactor

Regarding MB7 or bacteria dosing to the reactor, its advisable to dose bacteria for the first 3 days and from fourth day you have start the carbon dosing as above and stop the bacteria dosing after. Later you can add bacteria only if you open the reactor and clean. May be excess bacteria is blocking your reactor output.

 

[bala murugan 00500]

Ya, this is the best way to control... let me share my experience using this. the problem I faced is

1) in Long run, media will get clogged in slime from bacteria, so never tightly pack the media in those space.... what has to flow smoothly
2) make sure water entering the chamber is clean and not having any dust... if there it will sediment inside. then it will make water flow slow....... to avoid this... I place the feeding pump inside the separate filter sock.

 

[1mbrews8]

Using Vinegar alone is also fine and you can start with may be 4ml a day for a week (splitted by 1ml/6hrs is more efficient,) also dosing at once will work. Upon testing the output of reactor after a week you can increase 2ml and so on. Don't increase the carbon dosing further once you have seen reduction of nitrate from your reactor

Regarding MB7 or bacteria dosing to the reactor, its advisable to dose bacteria for the first 3 days and from fourth day you have start the carbon dosing as above and stop the bacteria dosing after. Later you can add bacteria only if you open the reactor and clean. May be excess bacteria is blocking your reactor output.

no reduction out of reactor yet,,, going to increase vi to 8ml a day

not clogging or anything...

 

[getmealemon]

For people trying to achieve more phosphate removal can you not just dose nitrate (either sodium or potassium nitrate) if it's generally accepted that nitrate is consumed on a ratio with phosphates (16-1?)

 

[Ponraj A]

no reduction out of reactor yet,,, going to increase vi to 8ml a day

not clogging or anything...

I prefer, before increasing the carbon dose can you try reducing the flow of the reactor out put and then 3 days later you can test nitrate from reactor output.

 

[1mbrews8]

I prefer, before increasing the carbon dose can you try reducing the flow of the reactor out put and then 3 days later you can test nitrate from reactor output.

I have it pretty low.

It is a regulated with a ball valve on manifold, so if I put it too low, the flow "eventually" stops. Even when I wasn't carbon dosing... not from getting clogged, but the flow just stops going IN...