Porcupine Puffer weak and always hiding or lying on the sand/rocks

[noober]

So I just got a porcupine puffer fish, it was in the store for at least 3 weeks because we've been eyeing this specific puffer and finally bought it 2 weeks ago. Got home, did the whole acclimation process for the fish, my kids named him "Stacky" and he was amazing. Stacky's always been so friendly, when we arrive home, he looks at us and greets us frantically fanning his fins, and on several occasions, would spit out water from the top of the tank while I work on the table next to it, just to get my attention. He's been in our tank going on 3 weeks now, and I noticed on Monday that he was kind of lethargic and he wasn't his usual self. He was still eating though, just not swimming around the tank like his usual. He would just lay on the sand or on some rocks or hide behind things. I thought it was the flow, so I decreased the tank flow but its been about 5 days now, and he's kind of losing his appetite. I always feed him twice a day (morning and evening), but the past 2 days, he'd only eat once in the evening. In the morning, even if i wiggle a clam in front of him, he just turns away and goes back down to the sand. I don't see any white spots on him so I'm not sure if it's ich, maybe in the early stages? but this morning I did notice he was kind of rubbing himself on the rocks kind of like scratching himself maybe? Also, after eating, he pooped out this white long worm looking thing with rounded nodules spaced out. Help please I'm worried, confused and dont know what to do. He's in the tank with an african blue tang, a sailfin tang and a couple of clowns. All the other fish are fine, its just him. They were all pretty much added together, except I did add a few more clowns about 2 weeks after. Water ph is at 8.0, and salinity is at 1.023. Help! I love his personality so much and I would HATE if I lost him.

EDIT: Stacky finally came out and I was able to get a picture. It looks like he now has some small white spots on his fins. Is this ich? How can I treat him? I don't have a QT

 

[NowGlazeIT]

@Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I just got a porcupine puffer fish, it was in the store for at least 3 weeks because we've been eyeing this specific puffer and finally bought it 2 weeks ago. Got home, did the whole acclimation process for the fish, my kids named him "Stacky" and he was amazing. Stacky's always been so friendly, when we arrive home, he looks at us and greets us frantically fanning his fins, and on several occasions, would spit out water from the top of the tank while I work on the table next to it, just to get my attention. He's been in our tank going on 3 weeks now, and I noticed on Monday that he was kind of lethargic and he wasn't his usual self. He was still eating though, just not swimming around the tank like his usual. He would just lay on the sand or on some rocks or hide behind things. I thought it was the flow, so I decreased the tank flow but its been about 5 days now, and he's kind of losing his appetite. I always feed him twice a day (morning and evening), but the past 2 days, he'd only eat once in the evening. In the morning, even if i wiggle a clam in front of him, he just turns away and goes back down to the sand. I don't see any white spots on him so I'm not sure if it's ich, maybe in the early stages? but this morning I did notice he was kind of rubbing himself on the rocks kind of like scratching himself maybe? Also, after eating, he pooped out this white long worm looking thing with rounded nodules spaced out. Help please I'm worried, confused and dont know what to do. He's in the tank with an african blue tang, a sailfin tang and a couple of clowns. All the other fish are fine, its just him. They were all pretty much added together, except I did add a few more clowns about 2 weeks after. Water ph is at 8.0, and salinity is at 1.023. Help! I love his personality so much and I would HATE if I lost him.

EDIT: Stacky finally came out and I was able to get a picture. It looks like he now has some small white spots on his fins. Is this ich? How can I treat him? I don't have a QT

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

In reading your description, I was thinking flukes, but then, the photos clearly show Cryptocaryon (ich). Trouble is, it is quite possible for the fish to have both issues at once.

This is going to be difficult to impossible to treat without a quarantine tank. Your other fish are now at risk from the same disease(s). What invertebrates do you have in the tank? I didn't see any in the photos. If you can move any inverts out, you would then have the option of treating the tank with low salinity. That has the benefit of treating both ich, as well as some species of fluke.

If you can do that, let me know and I can talk you through the process. You really need to get something started today. Other options would be copper in the main tank (you'll need to move all the inverts also, and it doesn't help with flukes). There is something called the Tank Transfer Method, but that won't work in this case, and it doesn't work for flukes. There are products on the market that say they cure ich and are safe for invertebrates - they typically fail to work.

The white worm thing you saw was probably just feces. If it was a worm, that the fish expelled it means it had died (you'll never see live worms) so that isn't an issue right now.


Jay

p.s. - I'll be offline today from around 11am until 4 pm EST.

 

[noober]

Hi @Jay Hemdal thank you so much for the response. I've been doing research and saw that someone on here did treat by decreasing salinity so I'm gonna try that. I'll be going to the store today to get some RODI as I don't have my own system.

Update though, I've been worried sick and couldn't sleep last night so I actually did a 5 minute FW dip, when I put him back in the tank, he was still the same. I came out to check on Stacky just now and he seems to be doing better. He's usually just hiding in the mornings and uninterested in everything but this morning, he was swimming about and came up to greet me. I don't have any inverts but I do plan on getting some anemones for the clowns down the line so I'm not sure treating with medication would be ok?

Please please please walk me through the process of how to decrease tank salinity and how long I would have to keep it at that level. I'm afraid other tank mates might get the disease too.

My tank is a 90 gal FOWLR for now.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi @Jay Hemdal thank you so much for the response. I've been doing research and saw that someone on here did treat by decreasing salinity so I'm gonna try that. I'll be going to the store today to get some RODI as I don't have my own system.

Update though, I've been worried sick and couldn't sleep last night so I actually did a 5 minute FW dip, when I put him back in the tank, he was still the same. I came out to check on Stacky just now and he seems to be doing better. He's usually just hiding in the mornings and uninterested in everything but this morning, he was swimming about and came up to greet me. I don't have any inverts but I do plan on getting some anemones for the clowns down the line so I'm not sure treating with medication would be ok?

Please please please walk me through the process of how to decrease tank salinity and how long I would have to keep it at that level. I'm afraid other tank mates might get the disease too.

My tank is a 90 gal FOWLR for now.

Since you don't have any invertebrates, lowering the salinity will be fairly straightforward. The first thing you need to do is ensure that the device you are using to measure salinity is very accurate. The quality of the device plays some part in this, but I find that it is helpful to take readings with different devices to ensure there is a consensus.

You do not need to use RODI water - dechlorinated tap water is fine. You are starting at 1.023. Let's say for simplicity, that your tank holds 100 gallons. If you remove ten gallons of water and replace it with ten gallons of dechlorinated tap water of the same temperature, your salinity will be at around 1.021 Wait a couple of hours and repeat the process. You will now be at 1.019 Two more hours and repeat will take you to 1.017 (actually more like 1.016 since your tank is only 90 gallons). At this point, I would stop for the day. Sunday morning, start the process again. You will need to repeat this 4 to 5 more times during the day and evening tomorrow. That will take you to a final specific gravity of 1.009. Do not go any lower! Also, do not go higher than 1.010. Hold the fish at that salt level for 30 days. You should monitor the pH of the water during this time, you may need to add pH increaser if it falls below 7.7 It is also prudent to monitor the ammonia level every day or so to start, then twice a week after that.

Jay

 

[noober]

Since you don't have any invertebrates, lowering the salinity will be fairly straightforward. The first thing you need to do is ensure that the device you are using to measure salinity is very accurate. The quality of the device plays some part in this, but I find that it is helpful to take readings with different devices to ensure there is a consensus.

You do not need to use RODI water - dechlorinated tap water is fine. You are starting at 1.023. Let's say for simplicity, that your tank holds 100 gallons. If you remove ten gallons of water and replace it with ten gallons of dechlorinated tap water of the same temperature, your salinity will be at around 1.021 Wait a couple of hours and repeat the process. You will now be at 1.019 Two more hours and repeat will take you to 1.017 (actually more like 1.016 since your tank is only 90 gallons). At this point, I would stop for the day. Sunday morning, start the process again. You will need to repeat this 4 to 5 more times during the day and evening tomorrow. That will take you to a final specific gravity of 1.009. Do not go any lower! Also, do not go higher than 1.010. Hold the fish at that salt level for 30 days. You should monitor the pH of the water during this time, you may need to add pH increaser if it falls below 7.7 It is also prudent to monitor the ammonia level every day or so to start, then twice a week after that.

Jay

Thank you so much. Update:
I just did the first set of water changes and have brought the salinity down to 1.017. I used RODI since I bought the water already by the time I read your reply. How come to decrease salinity its ok to use dechlorinated tap water? This is my first saltwater tank and I've only ever used RODI in it.

Is it safe for all the fish in the tank to bring salinity down all the way to 1.009? I have a few baby clownfish that are about 1-1.5 inches, not so sure how safe decreasing salinity that low will be for them.
No ammonia so far.
Stacky has been doing a lot better. He ate really well today. Should I do another FW dip with him if I'm decreasing the salinity Or do I just hold off on that for now?

Also, if I decrease salinity that low, what pH do I also need to maintain? It's currently still at 8.

Greatly appreciate all the input @Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you so much. Update:
I just did the first set of water changes and have brought the salinity down to 1.017. I used RODI since I bought the water already by the time I read your reply. How come to decrease salinity its ok to use dechlorinated tap water? This is my first saltwater tank and I've only ever used RODI in it.

Is it safe for all the fish in the tank to bring salinity down all the way to 1.009? I have a few baby clownfish that are about 1-1.5 inches, not so sure how safe decreasing salinity that low will be for them.
No ammonia so far.
Stacky has been doing a lot better. He ate really well today. Should I do another FW dip with him if I'm decreasing the salinity Or do I just hold off on that for now?

Also, if I decrease salinity that low, what pH do I also need to maintain? It's currently still at 8.

Greatly appreciate all the input @Jay Hemdal

RODI is only important for lower nutrient coral systems. It will also help limit algae growth in fish systems. However, most people cannot generate enough to make these changes. Tap water is fine for fish only systems.

Low salinity is not without its risks. The clownfish should be fine though, unless there are other issues.

I wouldn't dip the porcupine gain, not while it seems to be improving.

Try to keep the pH above 7.7 during this time.

Jay

 

[Just John]

Thank you so much. Update:
I just did the first set of water changes and have brought the salinity down to 1.017. I used RODI since I bought the water already by the time I read your reply. How come to decrease salinity its ok to use dechlorinated tap water? This is my first saltwater tank and I've only ever used RODI in it.

Is it safe for all the fish in the tank to bring salinity down all the way to 1.009? I have a few baby clownfish that are about 1-1.5 inches, not so sure how safe decreasing salinity that low will be for them.
No ammonia so far.
Stacky has been doing a lot better. He ate really well today. Should I do another FW dip with him if I'm decreasing the salinity Or do I just hold off on that for now?

Also, if I decrease salinity that low, what pH do I also need to maintain? It's currently still at 8.

Greatly appreciate all the input @Jay Hemdal

How is he doing?

 

[noober]

How is he doing?

He's doing good thank you for asking. So I dropped down the salinity to 1.09, and i he kinda perked up on the first day but started hiding again and didnt wanna eat, so I did another fresh water dip and that seemed to help again alot. Ive had the salinity down for over a week now and he's doin a lot better. Swimming a lot more, though not 100% back to his old self but I'd say hes getting there.

 

[Dr. Reef]

holding 1.009 for 21-30 days will rid ich and flukes both.
Hypo is not easy on fish either so keep an eye on the fish, they will eventually adjust. ALso when raising it up dont go more than 2 point per day.
Make sure before raising salinity that fish dont show any signs of ich in the gills.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

holding 1.009 for 21-30 days will rid ich and flukes both.
Hypo is not easy on fish either so keep an eye on the fish, they will eventually adjust. ALso when raising it up dont go more than 2 point per day.
Make sure before raising salinity that fish dont show any signs of ich in the gills.

The time for hypo does need to be 35 days is Neobendenia flukes are suspected - the eggs can take 30 days to hatch, and hypo doesn't kill the eggs. However, Hypo for Neo doesn't have to be as low as for ich - so what I often do is begin raising the salinity after 30 days, up to 17 ppt / 1.012. Then, after 35 days, slowly bring the salinity back to full.

Jay

 

[JumboShrimp]

Jay to the rescue once again!!

 

[noober]

holding 1.009 for 21-30 days will rid ich and flukes both.
Hypo is not easy on fish either so keep an eye on the fish, they will eventually adjust. ALso when raising it up dont go more than 2 point per day.
Make sure before raising salinity that fish dont show any signs of ich in the gills.

How do I know what ich looks like in the gills?

 

[noober]

The time for hypo does need to be 35 days is Neobendenia flukes are suspected - the eggs can take 30 days to hatch, and hypo doesn't kill the eggs. However, Hypo for Neo doesn't have to be as low as for ich - so what I often do is begin raising the salinity after 30 days, up to 17 ppt / 1.012. Then, after 35 days, slowly bring the salinity back to full.

Jay

So I've had the hypo down at roughly 1.009-1.01 for about 3 weeks now and the fish are doing great. I did notice a couple spots on the sailfin about a week after the porky but now the spots are disappearing on the sailfin and there are barely anymore spots on the puffer too. I did read that the ich will drop into the sand and burrow there and its when they hatch that they will burst due to the salinity, but how do I know its safe for me to start alowly raising the salinity. Are there any signs I need to look for?
Also i read about this shrimp that eats ich, is this a real thing?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ich tomonts are the resting stage, they can sit in crevices and wait to release tomites - and you're right, the hypo kills the tomite stage. I would continue the hypo for a full 35 days. Then, take 5 days to return to full salinity. I always then wait a couple of weeks - just to help ensure that the ich doesn't return.

Yes - Lysmata cleaner shrimp have been demonstrated to feed on Neobenedenia eggs and ich tomonts. The trouble is they eat these, but do not control them 100%, so they really can't be used as an effective control in aquariums.

Jay

 

[Dr. Reef]

How do I know what ich looks like in the gills?

Heavy fast gill movement is the first sign and fish hovering into the path of flow like swimming in front of power heads etc.
Normally I recommend 2 weeks past the visible ich been gone to rid gill ich.

 

[noober]

Ich tomonts are the resting stage, they can sit in crevices and wait to release tomites - and you're right, the hypo kills the tomite stage. I would continue the hypo for a full 35 days. Then, take 5 days to return to full salinity. I always then wait a couple of weeks - just to help ensure that the ich doesn't return.

Yes - Lysmata cleaner shrimp have been demonstrated to feed on Neobenedenia eggs and ich tomonts. The trouble is they eat these, but do not control them 100%, so they really can't be used as an effective control in aquariums.

Jay

Great thank you so much you have been super helpful! How do i increase the salinity over 5 days? I've been reading posts here on reef2reef and it does seem quite a right thing and i dont want to shock any of my fish.

 

[noober]

Heavy fast gill movement is the first sign and fish hovering into the path of flow like swimming in front of power heads etc.
Normally I recommend 2 weeks past the visible ich been gone to rid gill ic

Got it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Great thank you so much you have been super helpful! How do i increase the salinity over 5 days? I've been reading posts here on reef2reef and it does seem quite a right thing and i dont want to shock any of my fish.

Tough for me to explain how to return to normal salinity - you start by changing some of the tank water with new seawater mixed to full strength. Say a 10% water change 2x the first day. However, the closer you get to full strength, the more water you have to change to raise the salinity. At that point, you need to make some enriched, saltier water to use in the changes. Never mix salt higher than double strength though, as that can form precipitates. I’m on my phone and can’t look it up for you, but there is an online salinity calculator that can help. I think it is called Hamzas Reef.
Jay