Possible Mechanism for Seachem Prime Detoxification of Ammonia

Dan_P

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Prime's SDS says its pH is between 5-6.

Additionally, it seems like all the dechlorination produce HCl:

1631982546948.png


1631982574856.png
Would these reactions still be energetically and kinetically favorable if HOCl is replaced with NaOCl?
 

DrZoidburg

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To Dan's point here, let's suppose this were the mechanism....


... and Prime actually converted ammonia to NH2SO3-, but the NH3-sensing films still read the same level of ammonia, as Dan and I saw. Then the only way that could happen is if NH2SO3 also registered as ammonia via the films. But it seems it does not.

Here's solutions of tank water spiked with ammonia for zero, 0.5ppm N, and 1.5ppm N compared to adding sulfamic acid solutions of 0, 0.5ppm N, and 1.5ppm N. All were corrected to the same pH (8.35) and seachem ammonia sensing films were photographed after 1 hour.
20210917_171601-COLLAGE.jpg


Top is ammonia solutions, bottom is solutions made from sulfamic acid. It seems the ammonia sensing films are not fooled.

only caveat here is that the MSDS sheet for this product would only say that sulfamic acid is 60-100% of product...
Screen Shot 2021-09-17 at 8.42.13 PM.png


(Reagent grade would've been better, but I don't feel too far out on a limb thinking we can see how it'll turn out.)
you need to react the ammonia with sulfamic acid
 

DrZoidburg

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I read that link posted above ^ by aquarium science. I can see arguement from both sides. It would be nice to be able to interpret raman data objectively but we cant. Also was thinking a few things. A: If it was purposefully designed to get around legalities. Example, designed to react with bottle, cap liner, or any glues. B: Designed to work with a common organic D.O.C found in everyones tank. Cause the reliance of it working based on a theory imo is not reliable. There are reasons test above was conducted at 40 degrees C and in ammonia high ph. The dithionite is very unstable at lower ph, and higher temp. In as little as 20 minutes it changes by a significant percent. Requires also thiosulfate for this way to work. If ph is low there will be less of both. If ph too high there will be less thiosulfate. If ph just right there is a chance. Common ingredients of all of these reducer brands, like said though have potential to create a polymer. When something hydrolyzes it opens it up to the ability of a reaction with other things.
 

DrZoidburg

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Would you expand on this idea?
You could try some things. 1 turn it into a ammonium salt. 2 react further to a sulfamide with two NH groups. 3 change ph in test. The dye in strip is not reacting with charge of sulfamic acid. Is opposite then, or causing it to act a different way.

220px-Zwitterion_Structural_Formulae_V.1.svg.png
 

Malcontent

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All these Prime threads have me fantasizing about a deformulation GoFundMe again.
 

taricha

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DrZoidburg

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Are you saying that you found your sulfamic acid did react with your API salicylate ammonia test to give a positive result?
No no yet have been busy I suspect it may. Because of either reaction with something in test kit, or azo coupling reaction of some kind. I have tried this with other bound sources, and it does work different ways.
 

LRT

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I like your questions and don’t
Good point. These other ammonia binder products might stand up to the salicylate but if they don’t, then write the journals to discuss your finding. You can have both reefers and academics burning you in effigy :)
Do you represent prime?
 

taricha

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Depaywalled.
This (and a few other similar papers I'd seen) seems to describe the seachem films quite well.
The color shift is not quite the same as the indicator (bromocresol green) in the paper, but it's close.

color change disks.jpeg


can compare this vs fig 5b from the paper.

Also this paper supports the idea that amines will generate a color change from the films. Interesting.
 

DrZoidburg

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I over shot the ammonia its about 10 mg/L. Sulfamic 1.1mg/L. Ph 8.25 +/- From left to right control, sulfamic acid, sulfamic acid+ammonia, and ammonia. Its a little greener than the picture. I would say it affected the test by about 8%. Hydrolysis of this is slow. I would say it could be more over time. If cycled in a tank that is.
 

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Lasse

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This (and a few other similar papers I'd seen) seems to describe the seachem films quite well.
The color shift is not quite the same as the indicator (bromocresol green) in the paper, but it's close.

color change disks.jpeg


can compare this vs fig 5b from the paper.

Also this paper supports the idea that amines will generate a color change from the films. Interesting.
its a possibility for the ammonia alert - could it be for the Seney too? Is it this way - we still not know if the Prime remove NH3 or not. The only possible way to know fore sure is to use a ISE electrode for NH3 - IMO.

Sincerely Lasse
 

DrZoidburg

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This (and a few other similar papers I'd seen) seems to describe the seachem films quite well.
The color shift is not quite the same as the indicator (bromocresol green) in the paper, but it's close.

color change disks.jpeg


can compare this vs fig 5b from the paper.

Also this paper supports the idea that amines will generate a color change from the films. Interesting.
looks like https://www.cell.com/joule/pdfExtended/S2542-4351(17)30082-X It also looks like it could be both, very similar molecule. At alkaline ph they have similar spectrum.
 

DrZoidburg

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@Lasse This test is proof of concept. It would be similar across all brands in different ways. If sulfamic acid is from starting ingredients in this one. From this you may be see 3 things. Where R = organics. We have some sulfamic acid left. We have R-N2, and R-N-R. Otherwise no color at all without R-N-R. The limiting factor in the test kit seems may be hypochlorite. With more maybe have more color in sulfamic acid only vial. We don't have ammonia anymore. It is bound chemically. Now though we must consider what other organics, metals or ammonia that it could be reacting with even itself maybe.
 

Dan_P

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I over shot the ammonia its about 10 mg/L. Sulfamic 1.1mg/L. Ph 8.25 +/- From left to right control, sulfamic acid, sulfamic acid+ammonia, and ammonia. Its a little greener than the picture. I would say it affected the test by about 8%. Hydrolysis of this is slow. I would say it could be more over time. If cycled in a tank that is.
Observation seems to eliminate sulfamic acid as a Prime ingredient.
 
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