Possible Mechanism for Seachem Prime Detoxification of Ammonia

[threebuoys]

Uhh, pardon my ignorance, what's RTN?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it seems to me you've gone out of your way to defend Prime ( I understand you don't use it) to describe yourself as agnostic.

 

[MnFish1]

Many thanks for the reference. I got a good laugh from this patent. The equation shown is:
SFB + NH3 = ???????

I've never seen question marks in an equation in a patent like this. Guess you can get by with almost anything in Europe. What the equation really reads is:

HO-CH2-SO3Na + NH3 = ???????

What is your agenda - the class-action lawsuit? Just curious. - I cant remember whether you were that person or not

 

[MnFish1]

Uhh, pardon my ignorance, what's RTN?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it seems to me you've gone out of your way to defend Prime ( I understand you don't use it) to describe yourself as agnostic.

There is a quote feature on R2R. I do not have any clue where you are getting RTN. Nor do I know if your'e talking about my posts LOL. I personally have not gone out of my way to defend prime - I have gone out of my way to criticise the methods of the studies condemning prime. I dont care about Prime - the "science" and almost god-like acceptance of their results - is IMHO ridiculous. Even a scientific paper published by an expert is 'peer reviewed'. Has criticisms etc - This IMHO - is total uncontrolled ridiculousness.

 

[MnFish1]

About RTN - there was a certain company - I do not remember the name - that was claiming a cure for RTN (Rapid tissue necrosis) in coral. It was hard to pin them down. Whether they were right or wrong I have no clue

 

[threebuoys]

Curious what is your agenda? I'm agnostic as to whether Prime works or not - but your blog certainly suggests it is worthless for ammonia? This reminds me of another thread months ago - about a chemical that purported to cure RTN.

Sorry, I should have quoted you, that's where I got RTN. I haven't seen that abbreviation before. thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry, I should have quoted you, that's where I got RTN. I haven't seen that abbreviation before. thanks for clearing that up for me.

No worries - I didnt mean to sound harsh! I read what you meant on the end of one of my posts!

 

[AquariumScience]

What is your agenda - the class-action lawsuit? Just curious. - I cant remember whether you were that person or not

Nope, a class action lawsuit has to have substantial damages occurring to the parties. Using Prime for ammonia is generally a totally harmless waste of money so a lawsuit won't work. I'm just a curious hobbyist.

I would strongly guess, that these experiments have been done by Seachem (and other manufacturers of Ammonia detoxifying agents). I guess I don't see any evidence to support what is being said (if I'm reading multiple posts correctly) that 'Prime does not work', based on the behaviors of various test kits. There are any number of confounding reasons why these experiments may not 'show' what it seems you're trying to say.

I get the issue about 'not using animals' - EXCEPT - people do this experiment every day when they have a problem with ammonia and it helps. PS - I do not think you would need to have large numbers of fish to do the experiment - I mean the goal is not to publish it. Or am I incorrect?

And Seachem repeated admits on its website that it has NEVER tested the ammonia detoxifying properties of Prime. They only say that they feel that is correct based on comments from many different hobbyists, i.e. totally anecdotal "evidence". And of course anecdotal "evidence " means nothing.

 

[AquariumScience]

Nope, a class action lawsuit has to have substantial damages occurring to the parties. Using Prime for ammonia is generally a totally harmless waste of money so a lawsuit won't work. I'm just a curious hobbyist.

And Seachem repeated admits on its website that it has NEVER tested the ammonia detoxifying properties of Prime. They only say that they feel that is correct based on comments from many different hobbyists, i.e. totally anecdotal "evidence". And of course anecdotal "evidence " means nothing.

 

[MnFish1]

Nope, a class action lawsuit has to have substantial damages occurring to the parties. Using Prime for ammonia is generally a totally harmless waste of money so a lawsuit won't work. I'm just a curious hobbyist.

And Seachem repeated admits on its website that it has NEVER tested the ammonia detoxifying properties of Prime. They only say that they feel that is correct based on comments from many different hobbyists, i.e. totally anecdotal "evidence". And of course anecdotal "evidence " means nothing.

Can you quote that? Where Seachem says they have never tested the ammonia detoxifying properties of Prime? It is my reading that they clearly state it detoxifies Ammonia, but nitrite and nitrate they have anecdotal evidence? How about other ammonia 'detoxifying' agents'. Do they work?

 

[MnFish1]

Curious - might this be your website?

 

[AquariumScience]

Can you quote that? Where Seachem says they have never tested the ammonia detoxifying properties of Prime? It is my reading that they clearly state it detoxifies Ammonia, but nitrite and nitrate they have anecdotal evidence? How about other ammonia 'detoxifying' agents'. Do they work?

Yeah, they claim it is converted to "imidium". Any chemist will tell you "imidium" doesn't exist. And they say they have extensively tested it in their labs but they have no data which is available.

 

[AquariumScience]

Curious - might this be your website?

Aquarium Science is my website.

 

[MnFish1]

Aquarium Science is my website.

It was an interesting read!

 

[Garf]

Yeah, they claim it is converted to "imidium". Any chemist will tell you "imidium" doesn't exist. And they say they have extensively tested it in their labs but they have no data which is available.

You’ll be telling us unobtainium and inapproprylene doesn’t exist next, c’mon man.

 

[MnFish1]

Some interesting information from the Seachem website, a phone call to Seachem tech support, and a phone call to Seneye

1. According to Seneye, Prime can affect Seneye measurements for 24 hours after addition, and measurements should not be trusted until 24 hours after addition of Prime.

2. According to Seneye, concentrations of ammonia (especially prolonged) of >.0499 can not be trusted to be correct, because the slide will be damaged. Same with Chlorine (ie anything 'corrosive'). additionally or any other staining type materials will affect accuracy (such as malachite green).

1. This quote From Seachem website IMPLIES that there are not 1 but 2 ingredients in Prime: "Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem® takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process."

2. I called Seachem - and got the following response: we had an email some weeks ago asking about Whether Prime affects ammonia readings with the Seneye. The answer we gave was 'we do not have the knowledge of how the Seneye works and we have not tested it, so we cannot give information as to whether it would be accurate or not with Prime addition.

I also asked Seachem to clarify whether their free NH3 tests (recommended on their website) are accurate at high levels of ammonia or confounded by other variables. She said in general the test kits are to be used with ammonia levels found in aquaria, as compared to a scientific experiment. She said that when used under the proper conditions, the Free NH3 level should read lower after prime addition. They are going to discuss by Email and respond as to whether using higher doses of ammonia, etc with prime, whether the tests are sensitive enough to show a difference.

Thus, As I wondered in the beginning, whether there could be confounding issues with the test procedures used - as compared to the claim that 'Prime does not detoxify ammonia'. After discussing with both companies, I would say logically a problem with the experiments is more likely than a problem with prime (or other ammonia detoxifiers). Note - I'm not saying or advocating for Prime doing anything except dechlorination. I'm only saying that the experiments in this thread based on what I've learned are not adequate to make that claim.

 

[AquariumScience]

Some interesting information from the Seachem website, a phone call to Seachem tech support, and a phone call to Seneye

1. According to Seneye, Prime can affect Seneye measurements for 24 hours after addition, and measurements should not be trusted until 24 hours after addition of Prime.

2. According to Seneye, concentrations of ammonia (especially prolonged) of >.0499 can not be trusted to be correct, because the slide will be damaged. Same with Chlorine (ie anything 'corrosive'). additionally or any other staining type materials will affect accuracy (such as malachite green).

1. This quote From Seachem website IMPLIES that there are not 1 but 2 ingredients in Prime: "Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem® takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process."

2. I called Seachem - and got the following response: we had an email some weeks ago asking about Whether Prime affects ammonia readings with the Seneye. The answer we gave was 'we do not have the knowledge of how the Seneye works and we have not tested it, so we cannot give information as to whether it would be accurate or not with Prime addition.

I also asked Seachem to clarify whether their free NH3 tests (recommended on their website) are accurate at high levels of ammonia or confounded by other variables. She said in general the test kits are to be used with ammonia levels found in aquaria, as compared to a scientific experiment. She said that when used under the proper conditions, the Free NH3 level should read lower after prime addition. They are going to discuss by Email and respond as to whether using higher doses of ammonia, etc with prime, whether the tests are sensitive enough to show a difference.

Thus, As I wondered in the beginning, whether there could be confounding issues with the test procedures used - as compared to the claim that 'Prime does not detoxify ammonia'. After discussing with both companies, I would say logically a problem with the experiments is more likely than a problem with prime (or other ammonia detoxifiers). Note - I'm not saying or advocating for Prime doing anything except dechlorination. I'm only saying that the experiments in this thread based on what I've learned are not adequate to make that claim.

Interesting. An incredibly accurate computer operated Ramen spectrometer said that Prime is ONLY sodium dithionite. And the very well known chemistry of dithionite says it can't possibly detoxify ammonia. So that is "insufficient"?

 

[MnFish1]

Interesting. An incredibly accurate computer operated Ramen spectrometer said that Prime is ONLY sodium dithionite. And the very well known chemistry of dithionite says it can't possibly detoxify ammonia. So that is "insufficient"?

I dont know - nor does anyone else - know your agenda. Nor have I seen any publicly available results that show this, Perhaps this would be an issue - your'e correct - but - again - it would depend on what you/they were measuring. In other words if what was the goal of their experiment. I dont know - you havent posted it - and no one knows what you're talking about

 

[MnFish1]

I dont know - nor does anyone else - know your agenda. Nor have I seen any publicly available results that show this, Perhaps this would be an issue - your'e correct - but - again - it would depend on what you/they were measuring. In other words if what was the goal of their experiment. I dont know - you havent posted it - and no one knows what you're talking about

Also the second part of your comment deserves comment. WHO says that sodium dithionite or its derivatives can't detoxify ammonia? Who>

 

[DrZoidburg]

Interesting. An incredibly accurate computer operated Ramen spectrometer said that Prime is ONLY sodium dithionite. And the very well known chemistry of dithionite says it can't possibly detoxify ammonia. So that is "insufficient"?

Where is the data? When was the data? If look way up in this thread. Very interesting way it could. Do I think it is happening that way, no. It went from 2006-08 sds hydrosulfite complex. To modern sds that says * proprietary, and cas number for water. Define complex? Who knows for sure. I still think it could be an organosulfur mixture, or turns into one. How would it detoxify heavy metals?

 

[Lasse]

. According to Seneye, concentrations of ammonia (especially prolonged) of >.0499 can not be trusted to be correct, because the slide will be damaged.

This is very interesting. I suppose they mean 0.0499 ppm NH3. At pH - 8 0.0499 ppm NH3 correspond to a total ammonia off 1.102 ppm at 35 psu and 25 degree C

Calculator from Hamza´s reef

​

pH 8.1

​

pH 8.2

​

Please @MnFish1 confirm that the 0.0499 limit is true and that it is NH3 concentration. NH3-N concentrations does not change it to much however - around 18 % more total ammonia (NH3+NH4)

if this is true - it will means that Seneye by themself says that you can´t trust their equipment and that it can damage their equipment if your total ammonia is over 0.7 - 1.1 ppm in normal aquarium pH (8.2 - 8.0) Most of the famous work threads with ammonia and Seneye monitoring has been started at total ammonia levels over 2 ppm

If it is 0.499 instead for 0.0499 - the critical total ammonia will be around 7.3 at pH 8.2

Sincerely Lasse