Powder Blue ich and ??

boeingn747

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I have a powder blue tank that has ich.
The tank has 2 clowns, a blue hippo, purple, scopus, gem, blue eye kole tang, flame angle, green mandarin, tail spot blenny, aptasia eating file fish (does not eat aptasia), a cleaner wrasse, and a six line wrasse. The only fish showing ich is the powder blue. Once every couple weeks the purple will get a spot or two but then they fall off and don't return for a week or two. I powder blue, however gets pretty peppered, then they fall off and come back a day or so later, as they do. The reason why I am concern is becasue my powder blue is losing weight despite eating pretty well. I feed a variety of frozen food daily. I add 2 drops of garlic, and selcon at each feeding. Have done this for years. I did start adding a scoop of metroplex/focus to each feeding for 10 days but stopped becasue I noticed that one of my cleaner shrimp was eating more and more of the food. I didn't want to risk losing it so I stopped adding it. It's a very large mature reef and don't have the ability to treat with copper. I am in the process of cycling a 40gal hospital tank with the plan to go fallow at the end of February to kill the ich off once and for all. In the mean time and suggestions on what's going on with my powder blue, and what intervention should I take? Why the weight loss? Has to be a internal parasite, right? Suggestions on what to use to medicate with, and suggestions on keeping the shrimp from eating meds?
 

Jay Hemdal

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I have a powder blue tank that has ich.
The tank has 2 clowns, a blue hippo, purple, scopus, gem, blue eye kole tang, flame angle, green mandarin, tail spot blenny, aptasia eating file fish (does not eat aptasia), a cleaner wrasse, and a six line wrasse. The only fish showing ich is the powder blue. Once every couple weeks the purple will get a spot or two but then they fall off and don't return for a week or two. I powder blue, however gets pretty peppered, then they fall off and come back a day or so later, as they do. The reason why I am concern is becasue my powder blue is losing weight despite eating pretty well. I feed a variety of frozen food daily. I add 2 drops of garlic, and selcon at each feeding. Have done this for years. I did start adding a scoop of metroplex/focus to each feeding for 10 days but stopped becasue I noticed that one of my cleaner shrimp was eating more and more of the food. I didn't want to risk losing it so I stopped adding it. It's a very large mature reef and don't have the ability to treat with copper. I am in the process of cycling a 40gal hospital tank with the plan to go fallow at the end of February to kill the ich off once and for all. In the mean time and suggestions on what's going on with my powder blue, and what intervention should I take? Why the weight loss? Has to be a internal parasite, right? Suggestions on what to use to medicate with, and suggestions on keeping the shrimp from eating meds?
This is a pretty common scenario with PBT. The risk is at some point the pendulum may swing too far and the other fish will get sick and then things cascade to an acute infection.
I’m not a big fan of reef safe ich cures, as they typically are ich safe as well. Polyp Lab Medic is a peroxide salt, and in theory it can help limit infections. People also suggest UV sterilizers, but I’ve worked with them commercially and I’m not a big fan of those either.
Jay
 
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boeingn747

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This is a pretty common scenario with PBT. The risk is at some point the pendulum may swing too far and the other fish will get sick and then things cascade to an acute infection.
I’m not a big fan of reef safe ich cures, as they typically are ich safe as well. Polyp Lab Medic is a peroxide salt, and in theory it can help limit infections. People also suggest UV sterilizers, but I’ve worked with them commercially and I’m not a big fan of those either.
Jay
Jay, I couldn't agree more. I have a friend that has been in the reefing hobby and swears by reef medic. I had my doubts giving the feedback and reviews. I thought what could it hurt by trying. As i suspected it did nothing but lose me $30. Do you have a recommendation as to a corse of action going forward? I started adding the metro/focus back to the food tonight at feeding time. I am running carbon and decided to try to feed the shrimp first and then feed the fish hoping they don't eat much If any of the meds. At the end of the day saving the PBT is my priority at this time. I'm leaving the country in a week for a month. I have my friend taking care of my tank. I have set up a 40 gallon as a hospital QT tank so it's cycled and ready for fish when I get home. I am going to go fallow and get rid of the ich. Until then I need to try to get the blue healthy.
 

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Jay, I couldn't agree more. I have a friend that has been in the reefing hobby and swears by reef medic. I had my doubts giving the feedback and reviews. I thought what could it hurt by trying. As i suspected it did nothing but lose me $30. Do you have a recommendation as to a corse of action going forward? I started adding the metro/focus back to the food tonight at feeding time. I am running carbon and decided to try to feed the shrimp first and then feed the fish hoping they don't eat much If any of the meds. At the end of the day saving the PBT is my priority at this time. I'm leaving the country in a week for a month. I have my friend taking care of my tank. I have set up a 40 gallon as a hospital QT tank so it's cycled and ready for fish when I get home. I am going to go fallow and get rid of the ich. Until then I need to try to get the blue healthy.
When I had a velvet outbreak, I used MEDIC and ruby Rally Pro and beat it. Looking back, im sure it was the ruby Rally that cleared it.
 

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Jay Hemdal

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Jay, I couldn't agree more. I have a friend that has been in the reefing hobby and swears by reef medic. I had my doubts giving the feedback and reviews. I thought what could it hurt by trying. As i suspected it did nothing but lose me $30. Do you have a recommendation as to a corse of action going forward? I started adding the metro/focus back to the food tonight at feeding time. I am running carbon and decided to try to feed the shrimp first and then feed the fish hoping they don't eat much If any of the meds. At the end of the day saving the PBT is my priority at this time. I'm leaving the country in a week for a month. I have my friend taking care of my tank. I have set up a 40 gallon as a hospital QT tank so it's cycled and ready for fish when I get home. I am going to go fallow and get rid of the ich. Until then I need to try to get the blue healthy.
Sorry - I don't think there are any really good options for treating ich with invertebrates present. People commonly mix metro and focus, but really, they don't calculate the dose properly, so it isn't effective. Metronidazole needs to be dosed at 5000 ppm in food for it to work against ich. That makes the food really bitter and a lot of fish then won't accept it. The joke is - if your fish are eating metro and focus, the dose is too low. Here is an article I wrote here on medicated foods:



Jay
 
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boeingn747

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Sorry - I don't think there are any really good options for treating ich with invertebrates present. People commonly mix metro and focus, but really, they don't calculate the dose properly, so it isn't effective. Metronidazole needs to be dosed at 5000 ppm in food for it to work against ich. That makes the food really bitter and a lot of fish then won't accept it. The joke is - if your fish are eating metro and focus, the dose is too low. Here is an article I wrote here on medicated foods:



Jay
Wow, never really realized that things are such bull ****. It's like im finding out that most of the stuff commercial available is just a joke. Like polyp labs medic, like one scoop focusing one scoop metro in food. I'm realizing when you have prized fish that you are trying to keep alive it's not just as easy as adding a little of this or a little of that. It's amazing how much you learn when **** hits the fan. When all is going good, there are no worries. And then the nightmare starts. I feel like my powder blue is getting so thin despite eating like crazy that I'm worried that I just don't know how much time he has left. If I don't figure out something soon. What if I got home out and put him in a bath of parizipro, or metro/kanaplex in the water. Is there a best option at this point?
 

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Wow, never really realized that things are such bull ****. It's like im finding out that most of the stuff commercial available is just a joke. Like polyp labs medic, like one scoop focusing one scoop metro in food. I'm realizing when you have prized fish that you are trying to keep alive it's not just as easy as adding a little of this or a little of that. It's amazing how much you learn when **** hits the fan. When all is going good, there are no worries. And then the nightmare starts. I feel like my powder blue is getting so thin despite eating like crazy that I'm worried that I just don't know how much time he has left. If I don't figure out something soon. What if I got home out and put him in a bath of parizipro, or metro/kanaplex in the water. Is there a best option at this point?

Most fish can compensate for internal parasites if fed enough food. Ich kills fish much faster. You need to resolve the ich issue and then decide if there is an internal parasite issue that needs to be dealt with. Increase the fish's diet (adding in meaty foods) and then treat for ich....I would suggest copper or hyposalinity in a treatment tank.

If you post a picture, I might be able to judge how severe the ich is at this time....

Jay
 
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boeingn747

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Most fish can compensate for internal parasites if fed enough food. Ich kills fish much faster. You need to resolve the ich issue and then decide if there is an internal parasite issue that needs to be dealt with. Increase the fish's diet (adding in meaty foods) and then treat for ich....I would suggest copper or hyposalinity in a treatment tank.

If you post a picture, I might be able to judge how severe the ich is at this time....

Jay
Thanks Jay, all I had was the api copper test and didn't feel strongly about it and dosing copper. I ordered the high range hanna checker, it will be here today. So I will get him out and into a qt tank and get copper going right away. As far as spots are concerned, at night when more blue lights are on it appears like there is much more spots then it does during the day. I will attach some pictures when I can get a couple good ones today.
 
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boeingn747

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Most fish can compensate for internal parasites if fed enough food. Ich kills fish much faster. You need to resolve the ich issue and then decide if there is an internal parasite issue that needs to be dealt with. Increase the fish's diet (adding in meaty foods) and then treat for ich....I would suggest copper or hyposalinity in a treatment tank.

If you post a picture, I might be able to judge how severe the ich is at this time....

Jay
Here are those pics Jay. Excuse the water spots. I will also add that the ich seams to appear or be more visible in the evening when my lights are more blue.
 

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Jay Hemdal

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Here are those pics Jay. Excuse the water spots. I will also add that the ich seams to appear or be more visible in the evening when my lights are more blue.
That case looks beyond the level it can be "managed", so I think you're correct in treating it as this point.

Jay
 
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boeingn747

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That case looks beyond the level it can be "managed", so I think you're correct in treating it as this point.

Jay
Hey Jay, so I am going to start treatment today. I was able to catch my pet and get him into a QT. I am going to start ramping up with copper power to 2.0ppm (hanna checker) over the next 4 or 5 days.. My question is can I also add metro and or kanaplex to the equation as well? I'd like to address the internal issues if there is any. I have to believe that there is Givin the weight loss. Let me know if that is a good idea and if so what medication combo you recommend at this time. Thanks.
 
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boeingn747

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Hey Jay, so I am going to start treatment today. I was able to catch my pet and get him into a QT. I am going to start ramping up with copper power to 2.0ppm (hanna checker) over the next 4 or 5 days.. My question is can I also add metro and or kanaplex to the equation as well? I'd like to address the internal issues if there is any. I have to believe that there is Givin the weight loss. Let me know if that is a good idea and if so what medication combo you recommend at this time. Thanks.
O, how about copper and parizipro, and metroplex? I guess I'm just looking to maximize the medications best to fix the problem asap.
 

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O, how about copper and parizipro, and metroplex? I guess I'm just looking to maximize the medications best to fix the problem asap.
Copper and prazipro will usually work out o.k., as long as you manage the ammonia level and increase the aeration in the tank. I don't see any indication that an antibiotic is needed, and metroplex overlaps with copper so I wouldn't use that.

jay
 
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boeingn747

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Copper and prazipro will usually work out o.k., as long as you manage the ammonia level and increase the aeration in the tank. I don't see any indication that an antibiotic is needed, and metroplex overlaps with copper so I wouldn't use that.

jay
Ok. I dosed copper power last night. I'm at .39ppm, I'll dose again this evening and then add parizipro. As far as ammonia is concerned, what causes ammonia levels to rise when using those two things? Is it just becasue the copper kills off the good bacteria which in turn causes the ammonia to rise? Should i dose prime as well to neutralize the affects of the ammonia, or what do you recommend to keep it from affecting the fish?
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Ok. I dosed copper power last night. I'm at .39ppm, I'll dose again this evening and then add parizipro. As far as ammonia is concerned, what causes ammonia levels to rise when using those two things? Is it just becasue the copper kills off the good bacteria which in turn causes the ammonia to rise? Should i dose prime as well to neutralize the affects of the ammonia, or what do you recommend to keep it from affecting the fish?
You need to get the copper power up to 1.8-2.0 before it will begin to start working. The ammonia issue comes from two sources: copper power itself contains ammonia, and then, QT often do not have stable biofilters. You can't do anything about the ammonia that is bound to the copper, but add a bit more ammonia from a weak biofilter and you can have a problem.

Prime is a wild card - I prefer to use water changes (and proportionally redose copper) to manage ammonia. Prime plus cupramine can kill your fish by releasing free copper. Seachem knows this and warns against doing that. However, why would they caution you about using Prime and copper power or coppersafe? Until some independent testing is done, I prefer not to use reducing agents with any of those copper products.


Jay
 
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boeingn747

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You need to get the copper power up to 1.8-2.0 before it will begin to start working. The ammonia issue comes from two sources: copper power itself contains ammonia, and then, QT often do not have stable biofilters. You can't do anything about the ammonia that is bound to the copper, but add a bit more ammonia from a weak biofilter and you can have a problem.

Prime is a wild card - I prefer to use water changes (and proportionally redose copper) to manage ammonia. Prime plus cupramine can kill your fish by releasing free copper. Seachem knows this and warns against doing that. However, why would they caution you about using Prime and copper power or coppersafe? Until some independent testing is done, I prefer not to use reducing agents with any of those copper products.


Jay
I am slowing bringing levels up to 2.0ppm with Copper. As far as the ammonia, I can absolutely do water changes to reduce that. The tank is 3 or 4 months old. Only a 12 gallon tank though. Does prime have the same affects on copper power as it does with cupramine? I would consider using it if it is safe to do so. If not i will stick with water changes. Thanks for all of your help. It's much appreciated.
 

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I am slowing bringing levels up to 2.0ppm with Copper. As far as the ammonia, I can absolutely do water changes to reduce that. The tank is 3 or 4 months old. Only a 12 gallon tank though. Does prime have the same affects on copper power as it does with cupramine? I would consider using it if it is safe to do so. If not i will stick with water changes. Thanks for all of your help. It's much appreciated.
This is where it gets tricky - nobody knows if Prime makes copper power more toxic. If you control the ammonia with water changes, you'll need to redose the copper power proportionally to the amount of water you are replacing. Copper power adds about 0.50 ppm to your ammonia readings. Just worry about any ammonia higher than that.

Jay
 
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boeingn747

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Ok, thanks Jay. By chance do you know the name of the popular fish medication that is available by RX only, or people buy it on ebay but it often comes at the wrong strength or isn't as affective. The reason why I ask is, I am taking my dog to the vet tonight and I want to ask my vet for a rx of it. Just for the future in the even that I need it. Thanks again for all your knowledge. Sure is nice having resources that are so easy to get in touch with. Can't imagine what it was like in the reefing community 20 years ago.
 

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