Powder Blue Tang scratching in QT - first visible symptoms today

Julbra

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Hoping to get some advice on what to do next for my scratching Powder Blue Tang.
Had him in QT for 21 days and did my usual Formalin treatments but belatedly realised that my Formalin bottle is over 1 year old and so is probably ineffective.

He started scratching on day 9.

Today are the first visible signs, raised bumps on his belly and right side:
DSC_2061.jpg


I have Cupramine and Prazi on hand, need to start something asap.

He is consistently eating very well 4 times a day, feeding both frozen and nori stripes.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Hoping to get some advice on what to do next for my scratching Powder Blue Tang.
Had him in QT for 21 days and did my usual Formalin treatments but belatedly realised that my Formalin bottle is over 1 year old and so is probably ineffective.

He started scratching on day 9.

Today are the first visible signs, raised bumps on his belly and right side:
DSC_2061.jpg


I have Cupramine and Prazi on hand, need to start something asap.

He is consistently eating very well 4 times a day, feeding both frozen and nori stripes.

What dose were you using for the formalin? I pretty much stopped using formalin about a decade ago, I'm just not happy with the results, especially at low doses (and high doses can be toxic).

One thing to note - old formalin will have little bits of white material settles to the bottom of the bottle. That's called paraformaldeyhyde and it is very toxic, you never want that to get into a tank.

I would dose this fish 2x with Praziquantel, 8 days apart for flukes and then run a standard cupramine dose for 21 days. Normally I suggest copper first, but in this case, the symptoms sound more like flukes and I would hope that your formalin treatment would have at least reduced protozoans for the time being.

Jay
 
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Julbra

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What dose were you using for the formalin? I pretty much stopped using formalin about a decade ago, I'm just not happy with the results, especially at low doses (and high doses can be toxic).

One thing to note - old formalin will have little bits of white material settles to the bottom of the bottle. That's called paraformaldeyhyde and it is very toxic, you never want that to get into a tank.

I would dose this fish 2x with Praziquantel, 8 days apart for flukes and then run a standard cupramine dose for 21 days. Normally I suggest copper first, but in this case, the symptoms sound more like flukes and I would hope that your formalin treatment would have at least reduced protozoans for the time being.

Jay
@Jay Hemdal Thank you.

Noted re paraformaldeyhyde. No white deposit on the Formalin bottle and I always extract with a syringe from near the top of the bottle.

I did a bath at 150ppm for 1h then dosed 1.1mL for 45L (25ppm) and repeated this every other day with 50% changes.

Here is my QT log:
Day 0 - (10/11/22)
* Before he even touched the QT gave him a 60min Formalin bath at 150ppm
* The 45L QT he went into was treated with 1.1mL of 37% Formaldehyde (25 ppm)

Days 2-4-6-8
* 50% water change +1.1mL 37% Formaldehyde (25 ppm)

Day 9 - (10/20/22)
* First signs of scratching even though Formalin should still be present

Day 10 - (10/21/22)
* 80% water change, added activated carbon, switched on UV
* Scratching continues

Day 21 - (11/1/22)
* Still scratching

Day 22 - (today 11/2/22)
* first visible signs as seen on the photo

Do the bumps on the photo look like anything familiar?
 

vetteguy53081

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First Prazipro dose in (3mL)
UV off, carbon out, temp down from 26C to 25C, air stone on.
Agree on Prazi as Jay recommended and great on carbon removal. You wanted copper first but as recommended, you want to administer full dose which would be for an 8 day interval (dose lasts 8 days), do a water change then one more dose for 8 day interval.
 

Jay Hemdal

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@Jay Hemdal Thank you.

Noted re paraformaldeyhyde. No white deposit on the Formalin bottle and I always extract with a syringe from near the top of the bottle.

I did a bath at 150ppm for 1h then dosed 1.1mL for 45L (25ppm) and repeated this every other day with 50% changes.

Here is my QT log:
Day 0 - (10/11/22)
* Before he even touched the QT gave him a 60min Formalin bath at 150ppm
* The 45L QT he went into was treated with 1.1mL of 37% Formaldehyde (25 ppm)

Days 2-4-6-8
* 50% water change +1.1mL 37% Formaldehyde (25 ppm)

Day 9 - (10/20/22)
* First signs of scratching even though Formalin should still be present

Day 10 - (10/21/22)
* 80% water change, added activated carbon, switched on UV
* Scratching continues

Day 21 - (11/1/22)
* Still scratching

Day 22 - (today 11/2/22)
* first visible signs as seen on the photo

Do the bumps on the photo look like anything familiar?
Tough to say what the bumps are for sure, probably flukes, so prazi would be your next go-to I think.
Jay
 
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Julbra

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Tough to say what the bumps are for sure, probably flukes, so prazi would be your next go-to I think.
Jay
Too early to say but I’m getting positive vibes from the Prazi.

Just an hour after dosing the scratching had slowed down already. Appetite still good. Fingers crossed!
 

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Too early to say but I’m getting positive vibes from the Prazi.

Just an hour after dosing the scratching had slowed down already. Appetite still good. Fingers crossed!

Could be a coincidence - often, fish fare worse right after a dose of prazi, and then improve over a few days. I've even seen an increase in flashing after prazi - presumably from the flukes moving around on their skin. The reason why is that the flukes drop off the fish, and the open holes in their skin allow them to bleed out, and that takes some time to resolve/heal (or in serious cases, they may die from anemia). I usually see an improvement after prazi about five days after dosing (give or take a few days). Still, fingers crossed!

Jay
 
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Julbra

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Could be a coincidence - often, fish fare worse right after a dose of prazi, and then improve over a few days. I've even seen an increase in flashing after prazi - presumably from the flukes moving around on their skin. The reason why is that the flukes drop off the fish, and the open holes in their skin allow them to bleed out, and that takes some time to resolve/heal (or in serious cases, they may die from anemia). I usually see an improvement after prazi about five days after dosing (give or take a few days). Still, fingers crossed!

Jay
Thank you so much it's really useful to get this sort of timeline.

He was very twitchy and flashing for the first 15 minutes after the dose then appeared to calm down.
Having said that I have seen perfectly healthy fish react similarly to Prazi initially, I guess it really stinks or is foul tasting.

Bumps were still visible before lights out. Will be watching him very closely tomorrow.

Thanks again will keep you posted.
 
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Julbra

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update 24h after the first Prazi dose:
DSC_2100.jpg


I see fewer bumps compared to yesterday.
I have not seen him scratch today! (Yesterday morning he was scratching at least 5 times per minute).
Still eating like a champ.

Looking good so far :zipper-mouth-face:
 
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Julbra

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Hey @Jay Hemdal I believe we have some great news. I no longer see any bumps today. I managed to get a very sharp photo with a macro lens and the skin looks much healthier.

See the side by side comparison between yesterday and today 24h apart:
Screenshot 2022-11-04 at 13.18.20.png

:star-struck:

Second Prazi dose scheduled in 6 days.
 

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Hey @Jay Hemdal I believe we have some great news. I no longer see any bumps today. I managed to get a very sharp photo with a macro lens and the skin looks much healthier.

See the side by side comparison between yesterday and today 24h apart:
Screenshot 2022-11-04 at 13.18.20.png

:star-struck:

Second Prazi dose scheduled in 6 days.
Much better
 
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Julbra

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He’s not out of the woods yet. I did the second dose of Prazi on Thursday as scheduled but today noticed some scratching again. Will try and get a good photo tomorrow.
 

Jay Hemdal

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He’s not out of the woods yet. I did the second dose of Prazi on Thursday as scheduled but today noticed some scratching again. Will try and get a good photo tomorrow.

Any other symptoms than scratching?

Jay
 
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Julbra

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Any other symptoms than scratching?

Jay
Nothing alarming yet. Maybe faint visual discolouration but did not look like the original bumps and he is certainly not as bothered by it yet.

He put on weight, breathing seems normal.

I will get a close up photo after sunrise, the macro lens should shed some light.
 

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Nothing alarming yet. Maybe faint visual discolouration but did not look like the original bumps and he is certainly not as bothered by it yet.

He put on weight, breathing seems normal.

I will get a close up photo after sunrise, the macro lens should shed some light.

Photographs may not tell us enough - we try to link visuals with other symptoms. Remote diagnosis is really difficult. We see a number of failures with prazi. I've seen it myself. Part of that may be due to not breaking the life cycle of the flukes (the eggs keep hatching). In other cases, it is due to misdiagnosis. Finally, not sure if I mentioned this, but prazi has a big downside - with each dose, bacteria grows in your tank that consumes the medication as fast as it is being added - so combined with the egg issue, prazi often fails. Hyposalinity is another option - for fish only tanks of course.

Jay
 
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Julbra

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Good to know!

I have booked an hour for careful observation tomorrow and will report here.

That would be easy to put him in hypo as he is alone in the 50L QT.

Maybe worthy of note he was in semi hypo at the LFS at 24ppt and I have been raising this very slowly through evaporation and water changes since we got him. He reached full 35ppt salinity a couple of days ago. From my notes I can see that the symptoms coincided with the salinity reaching around 29ppt.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Good to know!

I have booked an hour for careful observation tomorrow and will report here.

That would be easy to put him in hypo as he is alone in the 50L QT.

Maybe worthy of note he was in semi hypo at the LFS at 24ppt and I have been raising this very slowly through evaporation and water changes since we got him. He reached full 35ppt salinity a couple of days ago. From my notes I can see that the symptoms coincided with the salinity reaching around 29ppt.

"Semi" low salinity doesn't provide any treatment for fish disease, it just helps reduce osmotic stress a bit. For an actual treatment, there are two very specific metrics you need to reach:

Half salinity (16 ppt or 1.012 sg) works well for marine flukes.
Low salinity ( 12 ppt or 1.009 sg) is needed to control marine ich (Cryptocaryon)

Low salinity does not work for velvet (Amyloodinium) but I don't think that is an issue here.

Jay
 
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Julbra

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Hi @Jay Hemdal

I observed the tang for 2 hours today. He had 3 scratching episodes of 5 or fewer scratches each. It strongly resembles the onset of the previous episode (before dosing Prazi).

I cannot see anything on him yet with the naked eye and the macro photos don't reveal anything obvious to me.
Here are a few close ups from this morning:
DSC_2150.jpg

DSC_2155.jpg

DSC_2173.jpg

DSC_2174.jpg


Here is a video of him scratching followed by 1 minute of "normal" behaviour:


Based on your advice above, my thinking is that it is flukes and they were seriously set back by the Prazi but not totally eliminated, possibly because of a shorter cycle (e.g. 5 days). Also this QT had seen Prazi a few months back so it is possible a large amount of Prazi eating bacteria was ready to bloom after the first dose.

Questions:
Is the next logical step to transition him to hyposalinity?
If yes:
Do we do it right away or do we wait for the end of this 8 day Prazi treatment?
How fast can we safely drop the salinity?
Is this the same duration as the Prazi (e.g. 16 days at 16ppt) and then follow this by 21 or 30 days of copper?
Or should I aim for the lower 12ppt for 21 or 30 days and skip the copper treatment altogether?

Apologies for the barrage of questions! We're not in any rush with him so we'd rather pick the better treatment over the shortest one.

Thanks again for all your help.
 

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