Powered Brown Tang Diagnosis and treatment reco please

BVF

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Hi all, first post here, hope to contribute over time, but for now, unfortunately I need some help please. Long time FW aquarist and in early June converted our 75g to a saltwater tank. fully cycled, through the uglies, everything is stable, etc…

On June 30 I added this Powder Brown Tang, and a few days later it appeared to display Ich. It has been a voracious eater and hasn’t scratched or shown signs of suffering.

LFS recommended PolypLab Medic and freshwater dips, which I did last week for 3 nights in a row, for 7 minutes each. The fish took it like a champ, and each morning the white dots were diminished, but by night the spots were back (maybe it was the lighting that made them show worse?). I also started treating the tank with PolyLab Medic on 7/5, per directions and did that for 13 days to no effect.

A couple days ago it started spending time swimming into the current of the power heads, and I caught it flashing once or twice. Also over the weekend, the Ich started looking more like Velvet, so I set up a small quarantine tank. It’s still eating like normal.

Tonight, it looked worse than ever before (see video), so I verified parameters and transferred it to the QT, and plan to treat it with Copper for Velvet in the AM; assuming the experts here believe this is the correct diagnosis and course of action. @Jay Hemdal TIA. These photos and video are from tonight prior to moving it to QT.

Here are details:
Aquarium Parameters: pH: 8.2, Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 0.25, salinity: 1.024, temp: 77.1, KH: 143.2, Calcium 420-440, NO3: 1-2, PO4: 0.25. These have all been very steady and checked 1-2x weekly. I use only RODI water and Reef Crystals salt. I do 5-10 gallon water changes every few days.
Aquarium type: Reef (2 clownfish and 1 diamond goby are unaffected, crabs, snails, few starter frags are fine)
Aquarium water volume: 75g
Filtration type: Fluval canister 406, no carbon
Lighting: 2 AI Hydra 32 LEDs
How long has the aquarium been established? 6 weeks


Other In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? No, all other fish are unaffected.
Are any invertebrates affected? Not that I can tell (3 red-leg hermit crabs, 4 snails)
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): Too fast, couldn’t get a decent count.
Are the affected fish still feeding? Yes, several times a day, eating Ocean Nutrition formula 2 flake and frozen Mysis shrimp
What remedies have you tried so far? FW dips, PolypLab Medic

Here is the link to the YouTube video from tonight as well.

Many thanks.
BVF

6304BBA3-CBA9-4EFB-A01B-D526869522A7.jpeg D04B0D8E-7C29-4D62-8F6F-C2BE2724D828.jpeg 6D193474-7123-4291-A8B2-42613D430F10.jpeg 7A901134-5B7D-42A2-AED4-626879076297.jpeg A353FEF6-2696-4A7A-AAD2-D49FA6414D8C.jpeg
 
BRS

vetteguy53081

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This fish seems to have gone past the stage of ich and symptoms suggest velvet which also makes sense. With ich, you can generally count the dots whereas with velvet, it represents the solar system as in the case of your tang. velvet spots on the fish that are much finer than the spots seen in Ich making it harder to catch until in cases too late to treat.
Some behaviors associated with a fish with velvet are :
- Scratching body against hard objects
- Fish is lethargic
- Loss of appetite and weight loss
- Rapid, labored breathing
- Fins clamped against the body
- rapid breathing and mucus around the gills

Fish with velvet will typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium. As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other types of ich is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.
Remove fish from main tank and give them a FW dip or bath and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication. Although many over-the-counter remedies contain the general name as ich or ick treatments, carefully read the box to be sure it is specifically designed to target "Oodinium".
 

Jay Hemdal

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Hi all, first post here, hope to contribute over time, but for now, unfortunately I need some help please. Long time FW aquarist and in early June converted our 75g to a saltwater tank. fully cycled, through the uglies, everything is stable, etc…

On June 30 I added this Powder Brown Tang, and a few days later it appeared to display Ich. It has been a voracious eater and hasn’t scratched or shown signs of suffering.

LFS recommended PolypLab Medic and freshwater dips, which I did last week for 3 nights in a row, for 7 minutes each. The fish took it like a champ, and each morning the white dots were diminished, but by night the spots were back (maybe it was the lighting that made them show worse?). I also started treating the tank with PolyLab Medic on 7/5, per directions and did that for 13 days to no effect.

A couple days ago it started spending time swimming into the current of the power heads, and I caught it flashing once or twice. Also over the weekend, the Ich started looking more like Velvet, so I set up a small quarantine tank. It’s still eating like normal.

Tonight, it looked worse than ever before (see video), so I verified parameters and transferred it to the QT, and plan to treat it with Copper for Velvet in the AM; assuming the experts here believe this is the correct diagnosis and course of action. @Jay Hemdal TIA. These photos and video are from tonight prior to moving it to QT.

Here are details:
Aquarium Parameters: pH: 8.2, Ammonia: 0, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 0.25, salinity: 1.024, temp: 77.1, KH: 143.2, Calcium 420-440, NO3: 1-2, PO4: 0.25. These have all been very steady and checked 1-2x weekly. I use only RODI water and Reef Crystals salt. I do 5-10 gallon water changes every few days.
Aquarium type: Reef (2 clownfish and 1 diamond goby are unaffected, crabs, snails, few starter frags are fine)
Aquarium water volume: 75g
Filtration type: Fluval canister 406, no carbon
Lighting: 2 AI Hydra 32 LEDs
How long has the aquarium been established? 6 weeks


Other In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? No, all other fish are unaffected.
Are any invertebrates affected? Not that I can tell (3 red-leg hermit crabs, 4 snails)
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): Too fast, couldn’t get a decent count.
Are the affected fish still feeding? Yes, several times a day, eating Ocean Nutrition formula 2 flake and frozen Mysis shrimp
What remedies have you tried so far? FW dips, PolypLab Medic

Here is the link to the YouTube video from tonight as well.

Many thanks.
BVF

6304BBA3-CBA9-4EFB-A01B-D526869522A7.jpeg D04B0D8E-7C29-4D62-8F6F-C2BE2724D828.jpeg 6D193474-7123-4291-A8B2-42613D430F10.jpeg 7A901134-5B7D-42A2-AED4-626879076297.jpeg A353FEF6-2696-4A7A-AAD2-D49FA6414D8C.jpeg
I can't really judge the fish's respiration rate in the video, but it doesn't seem too fast. The fish is also still feeding. Given the time frame, I think the fish has an advanced case of Cryptocaryon (ich) and not velvet. In later cases, the ich trophonts coalesce and are bridged by mucus, giving the appearance of smaller spots (velvet). Velvet kills more quickly and the fish breath very hard early on and they stop eating soon.
Polyp Lab is a peroxide salt. Hydrogen peroxide has been used to cure velvet in one study, but it is less effective against ich.

If I'm wrong and this is velvet, the best treatment would be to move all fish (or pull the invertebrates) and dose the tank with copper. That will manage velvet and ich.

If I'm right and it is ich, you could deal with it by moving all of the fish to hyposalinity for 30 days (or pull the inverts). A specific gravity of 1.009 would work. This won't help with velvet.

The trouble is: at this stage, any cure is going to take up to three days. The fish already has a pretty advanced case, so three days may be too long.

Another thing I cannot reconcile is why the other fish don't show symptoms (yet). That is rare to see with velvet, but even though PBT get ich pretty easily, I would expect it to spread to the other fish at some point.

Jay
 
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BVF

BVF

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Thanks @vetteguy53081 and @Jay Hemdal and for the bump @Jekyl

The tang made it through a long FW dip and the night in the QT, is acting skiddish (fins flared, staying toward the bottom, but swimming normally and breathing ok), and refused flake food.
FD092895-4EA9-4847-AFF1-7482E54E75B4.jpeg 262A275D-BF2A-4A9F-866C-CF6C00966ACB.jpeg

A lot of the white spots appear black today, and it does have a few white specks again. I’ll treat with Copper this AM as soon as stores open. I trust any one of these products will work, so long as it has copper and treats both marine Ich and Oodinium…? Thanks again gents.
D0714AA6-F663-4FA1-B973-D0519920CA93.jpeg
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Thanks @vetteguy53081 and @Jay Hemdal and for the bump @Jekyl

The tang made it through a long FW dip and the night in the QT, is acting skiddish (fins flared, staying toward the bottom, but swimming normally and breathing ok), and refused flake food.
FD092895-4EA9-4847-AFF1-7482E54E75B4.jpeg 262A275D-BF2A-4A9F-866C-CF6C00966ACB.jpeg

A lot of the white spots appear black today, and it does have a few white specks again. I’ll treat with Copper this AM as soon as stores open. I trust any one of these products will work, so long as it has copper and treats both marine Ich and Oodinium…? Thanks again gents.
D0714AA6-F663-4FA1-B973-D0519920CA93.jpeg
The doses listed are a bit low for Coppersafe and Copper Power. If you don’t hit a full dose quickly, the fish is going to get worse. With the Hanna checker I would shoot for 2.10 copper power or 2.25 coppersafe.
Jay
 
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BVF

BVF

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Well, appreciate the help, unfortunately I was probably a little too slow to start aggressive treatment. I dosed The QT yesterday morning with Coppersafe, per label, and it died this morning, about 24 hours later.

Follow-up question. I assume this was Ich or velvet, but the other 3 fish in the DT are fine, and showing no symptoms. Should I act as though the DT is infected and move fish to a clean QT and let the DT with snails, hermits, and coral frags go fallow for 76 days? Or just quarantine anything new going forward? Or something else?

thanks again,
Brian
 

Jay Hemdal

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Well, appreciate the help, unfortunately I was probably a little too slow to start aggressive treatment. I dosed The QT yesterday morning with Coppersafe, per label, and it died this morning, about 24 hours later.

Follow-up question. I assume this was Ich or velvet, but the other 3 fish in the DT are fine, and showing no symptoms. Should I act as though the DT is infected and move fish to a clean QT and let the DT with snails, hermits, and coral frags go fallow for 76 days? Or just quarantine anything new going forward? Or something else?

thanks again,
Brian
Sorry to hear. I reread the post and looked at the pics/video again. I still think this was an advanced case of ich. The trouble is, I can't reconcile that with the idea that your other fish are showing no symptoms. At this point, I think I would prepare for the worst and have a treatment tank at the ready. If your current fish never break with ich, then great. If they do, you have a treatment tank ready. If they don't have any issues (for a minimum of 45 days) you could acquire new fish and use the treatment tank as a quarantine tank.

Jay
 
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BVF

BVF

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Sorry to hear. I reread the post and looked at the pics/video again. I still think this was an advanced case of ich. The trouble is, I can't reconcile that with the idea that your other fish are showing no symptoms. At this point, I think I would prepare for the worst and have a treatment tank at the ready. If your current fish never break with ich, then great. If they do, you have a treatment tank ready. If they don't have any issues (for a minimum of 45 days) you could acquire new fish and use the treatment tank as a quarantine tank.

Jay
Thanks again Jay. I did clean and reset the QT, and last night the clowns showed signs of Ich. I did a FW dip and moved them to the QT treated with Coppersafe. Most likely, I’ll move the diamond goby to the QT as well and let the main tank sit for a couple months with just corals, snails, and crabs and let the Ich burn out before trying again.

39A64003-5AC7-4DF8-B497-4AFD19968D50.jpeg
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks again Jay. I did clean and reset the QT, and last night the clowns showed signs of Ich. I did a FW dip and moved them to the QT treated with Coppersafe. Most likely, I’ll move the diamond goby to the QT as well and let the main tank sit for a couple months with just corals, snails, and crabs and let the Ich burn out before trying again.

39A64003-5AC7-4DF8-B497-4AFD19968D50.jpeg
Yep - that is more typical of an ich outbreak. You'll need to get that goby out of there and treated as well. Make certain you are at a full dose of Coppersafe. I find it is a great ich preventative for quarantine, but it is slow to work on heavy cases like this.

Jay
 
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BVF

BVF

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Yep - that is more typical of an ich outbreak. You'll need to get that goby out of there and treated as well. Make certain you are at a full dose of Coppersafe. I find it is a great ich preventative for quarantine, but it is slow to work on heavy cases like this.

Jay
Done…and the clock is set for 76 days. Grrrr….
 

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