Practical Ich advice

[TimHazekamp]

Seeking real options for my situation. I have a 125 gallon mostly for fish tank (not quite FOWLR as I have cleaner and peppermint shrimp, and some small colonies of montipora, leather, xenia). I had a previous bout with ich. After fish died, tank had no additions for 30+ days. New additions were rainsford gobies and spotted mandarin, no ich. After another month bought my new fish, placed into 29 gallon QT for a couple weeks with Paraguard. Two rounds (first was Atlantic Blue and Mimic Tang and bannerfish, second being purple Tang and Majestic Angelfish (a couple other smaller fish, bluehead wrasse and clownfish that was bullied out of my 55 gallon coral tank as well). Within days of the second additions, boom, ich breakout. Been going for a couple weeks now, I'm feeding focus/metroplex enhanced food, and have installed two in tank UV sterilizers. The only one looking better is the purple Tang, as he was the first to really break out. Putting this many fish into a 29 gallon QT is not an option, they'd kill each other. Putting my angelfish and bannerfish into my 55 gallon coral tank and bringing ich into the tank isn't either. I've considered moving my corals to the bigger tank in the past since the lighting is better, which could delay the potential issue with the angel and Butterflyfish with coral for a time (note they ignore my xenia, gsp, and sps currently already, but my other tank had lps acans, favia, favites, lobo, hammer, frogspawn to worry about, along with the fish in that tank as well). Long story, but what's the best option? Continue with metroplex/focus and UV sterilizers only, or some other option. Also mindful that moving fish and inverts is going to stress out already sick fish. Feeling a little helpless as I watch. Any medication or water change regime that won't kill my inverts worth trying?

 

[JGT]

Seeking real options for my situation. I have a 125 gallon mostly for fish tank (not quite FOWLR as I have cleaner and peppermint shrimp, and some small colonies of montipora, leather, xenia). I had a previous bout with ich. After fish died, tank had no additions for 30+ days. New additions were rainsford gobies and spotted mandarin, no ich. After another month bought my new fish, placed into 29 gallon QT for a couple weeks with Paraguard. Two rounds (first was Atlantic Blue and Mimic Tang and bannerfish, second being purple Tang and Majestic Angelfish (a couple other smaller fish, bluehead wrasse and clownfish that was bullied out of my 55 gallon coral tank as well). Within days of the second additions, boom, ich breakout. Been going for a couple weeks now, I'm feeding focus/metroplex enhanced food, and have installed two in tank UV sterilizers. The only one looking better is the purple Tang, as he was the first to really break out. Putting this many fish into a 29 gallon QT is not an option, they'd kill each other. Putting my angelfish and bannerfish into my 55 gallon coral tank and bringing ich into the tank isn't either. I've considered moving my corals to the bigger tank in the past since the lighting is better, which could delay the potential issue with the angel and Butterflyfish with coral for a time (note they ignore my xenia, gsp, and sps currently already, but my other tank had lps acans, facia, favites, lobo, hammer, frogspawn to worry about, along with the fish in that tank as well). Long story, but what's the best option? Continue with metroplex/focus and UV sterilizers only, or some other option. Also mindful that moving fish and inverts is going to stress out already sick fish. Feeling a little helpless as I watch. Any medication or water change regime that won't kill my inverts worth trying?

@Jay Hemdal, resident fish doc for his advice.

 

[Hugh Mann]

Sounds like you're in a bit of a pinch. @Jay Hemdal should be able to help you out.

A couple suggestions based on my limited experience.

Keep going as you are, feed nori, spirulina brine shrimp, mysis, lrs pellets, soak with selcon. I've heard beta glucan is a great additive too. Keep pristine water. That will help improve your fish's immune system to start fighting off the ich. I did this when I got ich into my display, and after a week or so, the spots went away. Mind you I only had 1 Hippo Tang showing the spots, everything else was symptom free. Haven't had any trouble in weeks.

I assume you want to actually eradicate it from your tanks, yes? Slightly more problematic, but doable, but no matter what, the fish will get stressed.

When I was in a similar position with velvet early on, and I didn't have a QT bug enough for everything, and I don't know how practical this would be with a 125 gallon, but. I pulled all the rock and sand and inverts out and put them into a rubbermaid with a heater and powerhead. I then treated with copper, and later removed it with water changes and Cuprisorb. I am now using that same tank for a display, and my inverts and corals are just fine.

Alternatively, you could use rubbermaids, as they're a cheaper option to new tanks, as Quarantines, as many as you need to comfortably house your fish. Treat them however you will.

Hope any of that helps.

 

[TimHazekamp]

Sounds like you're in a bit of a pinch. @Jay Hemdal should be able to help you out.

A couple suggestions based on my limited experience.

Keep going as you are, feed nori, spirulina brine shrimp, mysis, lrs pellets, soak with selcon. I've heard beta glucan is a great additive too. Keep pristine water. That will help improve your fish's immune system to start fighting off the ich. I did this when I got ich into my display, and after a week or so, the spots went away. Mind you I only had 1 Hippo Tang showing the spots, everything else was symptom free. Haven't had any trouble in weeks.

I assume you want to actually eradicate it from your tanks, yes? Slightly more problematic, but doable, but no matter what, the fish will get stressed.

When I was in a similar position with velvet early on, and I didn't have a QT bug enough for everything, and I don't know how practical this would be with a 125 gallon, but. I pulled all the rock and sand and inverts out and put them into a rubbermaid with a heater and powerhead. I then treated with copper, and later removed it with water changes and Cuprisorb. I am now using that same tank for a display, and my inverts and corals are just fine.

Alternatively, you could use rubbermaids, as they're a cheaper option to new tanks, as Quarantines, as many as you need to comfortably house your fish. Treat them however you will.

Hope any of that helps.

I know elimination of ich is not really achievable from most everything I've seen (BRS guys often make that point). I am feeding nori daily too, and so far everyone still has an appetite. I'm thinking my wife would not think multiple rubbermaid bins spread across the house falls into the practical category, but would otherwise be an option. Thanks for the ideas and advice though.

 

[HuduVudu]

I see this happen all of the time. The problem first and foremost is gas exchange. The addition of fish will push the system over the edge and the oxygen depletion is such that the fish are slowly suffocated. As the lack of oxygen becomes greater the fish become more vulnerable to disease. The tank itself consumes oxygen through the biological filter and then the fish themselves consume oxygen. Some fish are move tolerant to lower oxygen some less. Tangs being IMO the least tolerant to lower oxygen.

To fix this you have to back all the way out to the area that surrounds your tank, your house. What are your indoor levels of CO2. The reason that I say CO2 is because it is a proxy for for oxygen. Not every house is a problem, but sometimes in a well ventilated house, there may be a room or area that isn't getting proper ventilation. This factor needs to be checked and if neccessary corrected. If you are bored you can see my build thread and my struggle with gas exchange. Once you have your indoor air quality corrected around the tank you need then work to ensure that the tank itself is getting access to the oxygen. Things to check, is your skimmer in a close cabinet with no ventilation? If there is ventilation is it adequate? Is the top of your tank sealed? If you are using glass to cover it perhaps new screening will help. Is your surface agitation and flow in the tank good. Does that flow ensure that all areas of the tank are well oxygenated. I have a specfic way that I create flow in my tank and it is designed to ensure maximum gas exchange. You can see the layout in my build thread.

You don't have to suffer with ich like this. This is entirely preventable, and once you master it keeping fish will become much easier.

My 2 cents.

 

[TimHazekamp]

I see this happen all of the time. The problem first and foremost is gas exchange. The addition of fish will push the system over the edge and the oxygen depletion is such that the fish are slowly suffocated. As the lack of oxygen becomes greater the fish become more vulnerable to disease. The tank itself consumes oxygen through the biological filter and then the fish themselves consume oxygen. Some fish are move tolerant to lower oxygen some less. Tangs being IMO the least tolerant to lower oxygen.

To fix this you have to back all the way out to the area that surrounds your tank, your house. What are your indoor levels of CO2. The reason that I say CO2 is because it is a proxy for for oxygen. Not every house is a problem, but sometimes in a well ventilated house, there may be a room or area that isn't getting proper ventilation. This factor needs to be checked and if neccessary corrected. If you are bored you can see my build thread and my struggle with gas exchange. Once you have your indoor air quality corrected around the tank you need then work to ensure that the tank itself is getting access to the oxygen. Things to check, is your skimmer in a close cabinet with no ventilation? If there is ventilation is it adequate? Is the top of your tank sealed? If you are using glass to cover it perhaps new screening will help. Is your surface agitation and flow in the tank good. Does that flow ensure that all areas of the tank are well oxygenated. I have a specfic way that I create flow in my tank and it is designed to ensure maximum gas exchange. You can see the layout in my build thread.

You don't have to suffer with ich like this. This is entirely preventable, and once you master it keeping fish will become much easier.

My 2 cents.

Tank top is screens. I have an oversized skimmer (Quantum NYOS) in a wooden cabinet with open back below. I have a two "station" air pump running into the sump, as well as two wavemakers , a Marine land HOB filter (two bio wheels) and a HOT Magnum HOB filter. Tank is in my basement but it is a finished basement. It's 125 gallon tank with 40 gallon sump. My return pump is only running about 50 percent, some room to bump that up but worried about going too high. I think oxygen should be okay, no way to really check it though. Planning on stepping up my water change regime to every couple days instead of 10 gallons a week. Oxygen situation sound okay to you - certainly a possibility but like I say hard to guess. The fish are rapidly breathing though, which I assumed was more related to the ich than oxygen issues.

 

[Spieg]

Adding fish after only 30 days was your mistake. Documented success says it takes at least 74 days to break the Ich cycle. At this point you need a larger QT to do it right.

 

[HuduVudu]

I have an oversized skimmer (Quantum NYOS) in a wooden cabinet with open back below.

How far away from the wall is it?

It is really important for there to be good flow through the cabinet. It is very helpful that you have screens on the top of the tank. If you have good surface movement and solid flow from the bottom to the top that is really helpful.

I have a two "station" air pump running into the sump, as well as two wavemakers

Do the air pumps pull from outside of the stand? If they don't you may just be re-circulating stale air.

In the tank It is all about water movement. I turn my full tank volume over about every 2 minutes, so for me that is about 1800 gph. I don't use powerheads but with powerheads this is easily achievable.

I think oxygen should be okay, no way to really check it though.

It is really hard to check O2 levels directly. The Salifert test is a joke and LaMotte is really expensive.

Oxygen situation sound okay to you - certainly a possibility but like I say hard to guess.

What your experiencing is highly likely O2. I just looked at your tag ... your in Biose that means is freezing cold. I grew up there. If your basement doesn't have good ventilation it doesn't matter what is going on with the tank. Best purchase for you right now is a CO2 sensor for your house. I have one called AirThings and it opened my eyes to how seriously bad my air quality is. You can see the graphs on my build thread. This is the product that I have. It is just the one that I am using there may be others that work better for you.



Without being able to rule out O2 levels in your basement then you can't really say you have good O2 unless you want to splurge for LaMotte. The LaMotte will be mostly a waste because it will tell you yes or now on O2, and then you are likely never to use it again. Though it is enlightening to see the how different things affect your O2 levels.

Just thought of this ... what is your PH range? This might offer clues.

 

[theMeat]

Fresh food that’s not frozen and low stress is the key. Food that includes gut. Like clam which is basically all gut. Fresh is best but freshly frozen, and not frozen for weeks or frozen to ridiculous sub zero temps offer some benefits too. Have been in hobby for decades and after doing this about 6-7 years ago my survival rate went up like crazy. Not to mention MY stress level went down.

 

[Anthony Scholfield]

I know elimination of ich is not really achievable from most everything I've seen (BRS guys often make that point). I am feeding nori daily too, and so far everyone still has an appetite. I'm thinking my wife would not think multiple rubbermaid bins spread across the house falls into the practical category, but would otherwise be an option. Thanks for the ideas and advice though.

Elimination of ICH is achievable. I have eliminated it twice, once in each system. It just takes proper procedure and patience. Its work but can be done.

 

[TimHazekamp]

Adding fish after only 30 days was your mistake. Documented success says it takes at least 74 days to break the Ich cycle. At this point you need a larger QT to do it right.

30+ days was probably too fast (early August to late September). But more than many do I'm sure. Sorry, I don't have unlimited funds and space, so 29 gallons QT is all that is practical. With my family situation I'm already pushing it with 3 tanks. Maybe fish and family can't mix if that is truly a requirement. That's where the practical comes in. Lot's of people have success with out any QT and smaller systems, but lots of luck. Hobbies should reduce stress right? Hehehe...

 

[TimHazekamp]

How far away from the wall is it?

It is really important for there to be good flow through the cabinet. It is very helpful that you have screens on the top of the tank. If you have good surface movement and solid flow from the bottom to the top that is really helpful.


Do the air pumps pull from outside of the stand? If they don't you may just be re-circulating stale air.

In the tank It is all about water movement. I turn my full tank volume over about every 2 minutes, so for me that is about 1800 gph. I don't use powerheads but with powerheads this is easily achievable.


It is really hard to check O2 levels directly. The Salifert test is a joke and LaMotte is really expensive.


What your experiencing is highly likely O2. I just looked at your tag ... your in Biose that means is freezing cold. I grew up there. If your basement doesn't have good ventilation it doesn't matter what is going on with the tank. Best purchase for you right now is a CO2 sensor for your house. I have one called AirThings and it opened my eyes to how seriously bad my air quality is. You can see the graphs on my build thread. This is the product that I have. It is just the one that I am using there may be others that work better for you.



Without being able to rule out O2 levels in your basement then you can't really say you have good O2 unless you want to splurge for LaMotte. The LaMotte will be mostly a waste because it will tell you yes or now on O2, and then you are likely never to use it again. Though it is enlightening to see the how different things affect your O2 levels.

Just thought of this ... what is your PH range? This might offer clues.

Tank is about 8 inches from wall. pH has been in range in past when I checked it, have not looked lately (been focused more on calcium and KH). Calcium was high on Sunday, about 500 ppm, KH was 8 to 9 (not a huge fan of the API test kits, hope to get digital meters eventually).

 

[HuduVudu]

pH has been in range

What are the actual numbers?

 

[Anthony Scholfield]

30+ days was probably too fast

Not probably to fast, it WAS to fast. Tank needs to be fallow at least 74 days.

How many fish are currently in the infected tank?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Seeking real options for my situation. I have a 125 gallon mostly for fish tank (not quite FOWLR as I have cleaner and peppermint shrimp, and some small colonies of montipora, leather, xenia). I had a previous bout with ich. After fish died, tank had no additions for 30+ days. New additions were rainsford gobies and spotted mandarin, no ich. After another month bought my new fish, placed into 29 gallon QT for a couple weeks with Paraguard. Two rounds (first was Atlantic Blue and Mimic Tang and bannerfish, second being purple Tang and Majestic Angelfish (a couple other smaller fish, bluehead wrasse and clownfish that was bullied out of my 55 gallon coral tank as well). Within days of the second additions, boom, ich breakout. Been going for a couple weeks now, I'm feeding focus/metroplex enhanced food, and have installed two in tank UV sterilizers. The only one looking better is the purple Tang, as he was the first to really break out. Putting this many fish into a 29 gallon QT is not an option, they'd kill each other. Putting my angelfish and bannerfish into my 55 gallon coral tank and bringing ich into the tank isn't either. I've considered moving my corals to the bigger tank in the past since the lighting is better, which could delay the potential issue with the angel and Butterflyfish with coral for a time (note they ignore my xenia, gsp, and sps currently already, but my other tank had lps acans, favia, favites, lobo, hammer, frogspawn to worry about, along with the fish in that tank as well). Long story, but what's the best option? Continue with metroplex/focus and UV sterilizers only, or some other option. Also mindful that moving fish and inverts is going to stress out already sick fish. Feeling a little helpless as I watch. Any medication or water change regime that won't kill my inverts worth trying?

Sorry I’m late to the party, that’ll teach me to go to bed early!
Your question is difficult to answer since everything is so subjective. One thing that would really help me would be to see a short video of some of the fish. That would give me a better idea as to the parasite load, it’s all about what is known as propagule pressure. Ich management only works when the Theront load is below a certain point. I can’t give an exact point, but by seeing the fish, I can get a better sense of it....
Jay

 

[TimHazekamp]

What are the actual num

Sorry I’m late to the party, that’ll teach me to go to bed early!
Your question is difficult to answer since everything is so subjective. One thing that would really help me would be to see a short video of some of the fish. That would give me a better idea as to the parasite load, it’s all about what is known as propagule pressure. Ich management only works when the Theront load is below a certain point. I can’t give an exact point, but by seeing the fish, I can get a better sense of it....
Jay

Jay. Appreciate you chiming in, sorry been busy today. My black and white bannerfish is not looking good today. His case has been on and off over past couple weeks. Purple Tang is looking better now. Atlantic Blue (juvenile) has been breathing like this more or less since I've gotten him. He likes my neon gobies a lot though. Mimic Tang is full on hiding today, only out to feed (likely not a great sign) and has a similar gill rate. Excuse the glass algae, they freak out when I clean it and trying to reduce stress (and it is extra food source). Recently added dry live rock for more hiding places (only has light brown algae on it so far, coraline is growing on all my other rocks).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay. Appreciate you chiming in, sorry been busy today. My black and white bannerfish is not looking good today. His case has been on and off over past couple weeks. Purple Tang is looking better now. Atlantic Blue (juvenile) has been breathing like this more or less since I've gotten him. He likes my neon gobies a lot though. Mimic Tang is full on hiding today, only out to feed (likely not a great sign) and has a similar gill rate. Excuse the glass algae, they freak out when I clean it and trying to reduce stress (and it is extra food source). Recently added dry live rock for more hiding places (only has light brown algae on it so far, coraline is growing on all my other rocks).

Oh wow - in my opinion, these fish are well past the point of being able to manage ich. Once the propagule pressure is this high, no amount of good water, oxygen or perfect diet is going to save them. Indeed, I have seen people have difficulty bringing fish back from this point even using aggressive copper.

I'm afraid that the only advice I can give is to get these fish into full copper ASAP, using Cupramine and a good test kit.

Jay

 

[TimHazekamp]

So, sounds like I kill my copepods (and thus my mandarin) and inverts or let my fish die. Not exactly a great set of choices. Am I correct in assuming chasing all these fish down with a net and putting them in a 29 gallon for 76 days is not a viable alternative (more likely to kill them).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So, sounds like I kill my copepods (and thus my mandarin) and inverts or let my fish die. Not exactly a great set of choices. Am I correct in assuming chasing all these fish down with a net and putting them in a 29 gallon for 76 days is not a viable alternative (more likely to kill them).

Not a lot of good options here. Even copper may not work. Damage control would be to move the high value fish to the 29 and treat them. You could also move the sickest fish to the 29 and try to manage the less sick ones in the DT.
Jay

 

[TimHazekamp]

Any experience with Imagitarium Parasite Remedy? I know PetCo is probably unpopular on this forum, but they were the only place open last night when I went out. I did a 12 gallon water change and am dosing as directed (50 percent dose 12 hours apart). I'm sure it's Snake Oil, but figured it was better than not trying it. Your idea of moving some over... Won't they just get it again when they survive and come back? That's my worry with it.