Pre-Quarantined fish now gasping for air

[brandon429]

ten thousand master's theses have been written on the matter between bubblers and pumps for oxygenation and waste gas removal.

powerheads specifically lose against even weaker bubbler setups in the race to eject co2 and uptake oxygen, tables will show. they manage ten million gallon freshwater lake fish kill events with giant bubblers, not giant pumps.

that being said I'm not sure its the issue here, its hard to discern issues regarding new fish acclimation/transfer and holding without patterns. If sixty people had issues, that would seem to be a pattern. ratings look good to me/need more info here.

 

[melonheadorion]

Air stones don't provide oxygen there I said it.

Air bubbles simply carry water up to the surface where the oxygen exchange happens. It's just a cheap mechanism for circulating water, something that's done much more effectively by mechanical means, ie powerheads in the 21 century.

You of course can believe anything you want and should not take my word for it.

 

[BZOFIQ]

search out the models, about ten thousand master's theses have been written on the matter between bubblers and pumps for oxygenation and waste gas removal.

powerheads specifically lose against even weaker bubbler setups in the race to eject co2 and uptake oxygen, tables will show. they manage ten million gallon freshwater lake fish kill events with giant bubblers, not giant pumps.

I've seen plenty of documents from AES and at the end of the day, the bubbler setups move water to the surface where the exchange happens. It's a cheap way to get the water from the bottom of the pond to the surface. My original statement still stands - bubblers move water to the top of water column.

 

[ihavecrabs]

Did you add that air stone by chance?

Well you got @Jay Hemdal on the case, so I'm gonna bow out of this. Hope he makes it, he's beautful!

The Fish or Jay?

 

[melonheadorion]

Powerheads pointing at the surface provide plenty of surface boil. My tunzes will "spit" water out of the tank if allowed.

Either way, air stones don't inject oxygen from the air into the water. As stated previously they just move the water to the surface.

the responses you received werent implying that air stones put oxygen into the water. it simply helps break the surface of the water, and help with movement to allow the water to oxygenate itself, just as a pump would.

 

[Pisanoal]

Well you got @Jay Hemdal on the case, so I'm gonna bow out of this. Hope he makes it, he's beautful!

5hanks

You said you have lots of surface agitation, but there seems to be a lot of debris floating on top of the water in the video. Also, not much water movement.

What's the background on the tank? Is this the only new fish? Just trying to eliminate possibilities.

I addressed the surface agitation and water movement/debris a little bit ago, but he is in an acclimation box that limits the surface agitation at the surface of the box which is why there is some protein/oily buildup at the top in the video. The box is quite large (14x24x8"?) and built out of two acrylic panels connected with eggcrate on 4 sides.

This is a 300 gallon sps (Acropora) reef with 60x+ turn over. Tank has been up for a couple of years. This is the only new addition in at least 6 months and that was coral. No new fish for close to a year.

 

[BZOFIQ]

the responses you received werent implying that air stones put oxygen into the water. it simply helps break the surface of the water, and help with movement to allow the water to oxygenate itself, just as a pump would.

Gentleman here seems to think otherwise.

 

[Pisanoal]

The fish has a couple of spots of Lymphocystis, but those are of no real consequence. It has good body mass, but as you said, it is breathing very fast.

I'm not sure I understand the use of the egg crate. I never use egg crate with CBB, they can injure themselves if they get spooked and run into it....their long snouts just don't mesh well with egg crate.

Have you tried adding aeration yet?

Jay

Yeah, I noticed the lympho spots and not concerned. I added some more surface agitation a little bit ago and upped the return pump to increase turnover and sump agitation. I was home on lunch break and back at work now. Ill grab some air stones on my home, I couldnt find any somehow.

The egg crate is for the construction of the acclimation box. It has 4 sides made out of egg crate and 2 made out of acrylic. I did this so I could build one large enough for him to reside in for a few weeks to get everyone used to him and make sure he was eating well. Regardless of the injury risk, on balancing concerns, I'm less concerned about that danger than I am too small of a box/stress or bullying. But that's neither here nor there at the moment and I honestly hadn't considered that, so noted for the future.

 

[Pisanoal]

double post

 

[melonheadorion]

Gentleman here seems to think otherwise.

he said air....not oxygen.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Gentleman here seems to think otherwise.

Not sure what that post means. Powerheads are notorious for not driving off excess CO2. Air stones break the surface tension allowing for better gas exchange. There has been a sickening trend in recent years where people limit aeration in an attempt to avoid salt spray, and this has proven problematic, to the point where I have to ask people about aeration in virtually every case of rapid breathing here. In this case, the OP is fine.

Jay

 

[Pisanoal]

air stones beat powerheads always. laminar flow and surface boil vs directed currents and eddies. airstones have salt creep and laminar flow isn't ideal in all cases but for gas exchange/why we use airstones it wins in efficiency. wastewater studies w show it.

based on post #1 I can't rule out the op's tank infecting Dr. Reef's fish. you're saying all post history will show strict control fallow of imports, hardscapes and coral or are we talking mighty loose fallow/only starts with clean fish

I'll agree, I can't rule out infection from my tank. However, I do QT all fish that go in to the tank. Other wet additions I'm reasonably cautious. I don't think at this point its fruitful to discuss the specifics based on details. I have a good amount of healthy fish (powder blue, chevron tang, purple tang, two yellow tangs, blue chromis, black chromis, 2 clowns, probably a few others i'm missing) This fish has been in the tank for 5 days. If something was extremely virulent and hazardous to be causing this much issue with a brand new fish that was infected from the tank, id expect to see at least some issues with other fish in the tank. I can not rule it out though.


That aside, immediate help for the CBB? Any recommendations on immediate treatment and likely suspects?

Thanks

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah, I noticed the lympho spots and not concerned. I added some more surface agitation a little bit ago and upped the return pump to increase turnover and sump agitation. I was home on lunch break and back at work now. Ill grab some air stones on my home, I couldnt find any somehow.

The egg crate is for the construction of the acclimation box. It has 4 sides made out of egg crate and 2 made out of acrylic. I did this so I could build one large enough for him to reside in for a few weeks to get everyone used to him and make sure he was eating well. Regardless of the injury risk, on balancing concerns, I'm less concerned about that danger than I am too small of a box/stress or bullying. But that's neither here nor there at the moment and I honestly hadn't considered that, so noted for the future.

I think we cross-posted. You don't need an air stone, I didn't have a full description of your system when I last posted (at the same time you described your tank).

So - I've been reluctant to broach this (thus trying other angles first -ruling out aeration, water quality, etc.) but the fish may have Amyloodinium, velvet. Other gill diseases such as flukes and bacterial diseases work a bit slower and the fish don't go off feed right away. Despite what you will read, velvet usually presents with no spots at all, just rapid breathing and anorexia. Sometimes, the fish will hover into water flow. Only in late stages will you see the classic "fine dusting". About 80% of the "velvet" cases I see here are actually advanced ich, which of course, this is not.

So - hope I'm wrong on this.......

Jay

 

[BZOFIQ]

Not sure what that post means. Powerheads are notorious for not driving off excess CO2. Air stones break the surface tension allowing for better gas exchange. There has been a sickening trend in recent years where people limit aeration in an attempt to avoid salt spray, and this has proven problematic, to the point where I have to ask people about aeration in virtually every case of rapid breathing here. In this case, the OP is fine.

Jay

Jay, I understand why you'd ask that.

My intention was to state that if you point a powerhead straight at the surface it will have the same effect ....if one cannot locate an airstone. The O/P stated in post #10 that he couldn't find one.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, I understand why you'd ask that.

My intention was to state that if you point a powerhead straight at the surface it will have the same effect ....if one cannot locate an airstone. The O/P stated in post #10 that he couldn't find one.

Here, I pulled this section from my upcoming fish disease book:

Dissolved Gases
All aquarists are aware that their aquariums require a minimum concentration of dissolved oxygen in the water for their fish to survive. Many aquarists are also aware that if gasses are dissolved in too great an amount, supersaturation can occur, causing serious health problems in their animals. Due to a lack of appropriate test equipment, most aquarists can do little about measuring for potential problems with dissolved gas levels.

There are four basic concerns regarding the level of dissolved gasses in aquarium water: acute supersaturation, chronic supersaturation, low dissolved oxygen tension, and high carbon dioxide tension. Even without test kits and expensive meters, aquarists can avoid problems with these concerns if they are made aware of the issues and take certain precautions.

Acute supersaturation
This is known as the “gas bubble disease.” An aquarium that has a water pump malfunction of some sort may develop a dissolved gas saturation level of greater than 120%. The onset is sudden and the results devastating. Fish will develop severe bilateral exophthalmia (pop-eye involving both eyes), and their gills will show massive trauma with gas bubble aneurysms. In the worst cases, air bubbles will be present in the soft fin rays and in the gills. Death is rapid, and even if the still-living fish are moved to a new aquarium, they will usually not recover

Two common causes of acute supersaturation are a sump that is allowed to run dry, allowing the pump to suck in air, or a loose fitting that allows for a continuous air leak at the suction side of a pump. Despite best intentions, equipment sometimes does fail, allowing supersaturation to occur.

In these cases, the problem can be lessened by always having the return line from any aquarium pump return water to the aquarium above the water line. The agitation of the pumped water hitting the aquarium surface is akin to shaking up a can of soda pop and driving off the “fizz.”

Not every case of gas buildup in animal tissue is caused by supersaturation. Some bacteria produce gasses as they grow and multiply. A fish with a serious bacterial infection may develop gas pockets in the intestines, behind the eyes, in the air bladder, or even under the skin.


Chronic supersaturation
Only a few aquarists have ever identified this relatively rare, bizarre syndrome. Essentially, this disorder occurs when the level of supersaturation is not great enough to kill the fish outright, but sufficient to cause physical damage to the fish. It is a great mimic of other problems. For example, the damage caused by the supersaturation may be invisible to the aquarist, but it weakens the fish. In turn, the fish may develop protozoan infections or may die from a pre-existing chronic problem, such as fatty liver disease.

Since mechanical failure of a pump rarely occurs in a “partial fashion” (that is to say, only a tiny leak develops), this problem is rarely the cause of chronic supersaturation. The primary cause of this malady is the use of very cold tap water (even if subsequently warmed up) to perform partial water changes. During the winter at northern latitudes, the temperature of the tap water may fall to 38 degrees F. At this low temperature, water can hold a huge amount of dissolved gas. In addition, the city water supply may use powerful pumps that force even more gas into solution. When this water is used by unsuspecting aquarists, the result is chronic supersaturation (or even acute supersaturation in severe cases).

One answer to this problem is to warm up the tap water to 85 degrees and aerate it heavily for 48 hours prior to using it for a water change in an aquarium.


The following are symptoms of chronic supersaturation is fishes:

Mostly smaller fish are affected (they have a higher surface-to-volume ratio).
White "mask" on nape of head.
Mild exophthalmia, sometimes only involving one eye.
Discoloration of posterior soft fin rays.
Missing scales, fin damage (resulting from aggression from the less affected fish).
Fish loss attributed to other chronic problems, such as fatty liver disease.
Gill aneurysms, some macroscopic air bubbles may be seen.
Rapid, deep breathing.
Listlessness, hanging near the surface or on the bottom.


Generally, these symptoms abate only gradually once the source of the supersaturation has been eliminated. In some instances, fish mortality continues for weeks after the incident has been resolved.


Low dissolved oxygen tension
This is the relatively common “gasping fish syndrome,” in which the dissolved oxygen level of the water drops below that required by the fish. The fish will be seen breathing rapidly and deeply, often gasping at the surface. As the problem progresses, the fish may die, often with an unmistakable “last-gasp”—their mouth being fixed wide open.


Note that “gasping at the surface” is a very specific evolutionary behavior seen in some freshwater fishes that may see low dissolved oxygen tension in their normal habitat. This allows those fish to extract more highly oxygenated water right at the air/water interface. This behavior is NOT seen in fishes that would not normally benefit from this; marine reef fishes, freshwater fishes from deep lakes, etc. Those species have no evolutionary need for that behavior, and instead, their behavior will be to simply respire faster until they perish, usually with their mouth agape.


Common causes of this problem include; overcrowding, insufficient aeration, chemical removal of oxygen (such as by potassium permanganate), and low saturation levels due to high water temperature or high biological oxygen demand from excess microorganisms in the aquarium.

Generally, if the affected fish are moved to a new system that has sufficient levels of dissolved oxygen (or if the problem is quickly corrected in the original aquarium), the fish will recover spontaneously with no long-term effects. Be aware, however, that bacterial, protozoan, and metazoan gill diseases can cause similar symptoms.


High carbon dioxide tension
In this rather rare instance, the dissolved oxygen level may be at or near saturation, but artificially elevated carbon dioxide levels create symptoms in the fish that mirror that of an oxygen deficiency. There is only one situation in which a aquarist is likely to see this problem: in a heavily stocked aquarium that has powerheads or canister filters whose effluents do not actively break the surface tension of the water. Breaking the surface tension allows the excess carbon dioxide to be driven off.

 

[Pisanoal]

I think we cross-posted. You don't need an air stone, I didn't have a full description of your system when I last posted (at the same time you described your tank).

So - I've been reluctant to broach this (thus trying other angles first -ruling out aeration, water quality, etc.) but the fish may have Amyloodinium, velvet. Other gill diseases such as flukes and bacterial diseases work a bit slower and the fish don't go off feed right away. Despite what you will read, velvet usually presents with no spots at all, just rapid breathing and anorexia. Sometimes, the fish will hover into water flow. Only in late stages will you see the classic "fine dusting". About 80% of the "velvet" cases I see here are actually advanced ich, which of course, this is not.

So - hope I'm wrong on this.......

Jay

I hope you are wrong too. That's my main concern.

Let's assume it is though.

Treatment? I don't have formalin. I have copper power, but I'm guessing at this point that's probably going to be too slow? I've heard freshwater dip to help alleviate it some in the short term? Is there anything else I could pick up from a farm store that would work faster for some immediate relief while I get him into copper? Is there something I can dip him in that would help with gill flukes/bacterial disease etc? I do have some antibiotics.

Thanks

 

[BZOFIQ]

Here, I pulled this section from my upcoming fish disease book:

....

There is definitely a disconnect here as I don't think I disagreed with you in anything you said.

 

[JGT]

I hope you are wrong too. That's my main concern.

Let's assume it is though.

Treatment? I don't have formalin. I have copper power, but I'm guessing at this point that's probably going to be too slow? I've heard freshwater dip to help alleviate it some in the short term? Is there anything else I could pick up from a farm store that would work faster for some immediate relief while I get him into copper? Is there something I can dip him in that would help with gill flukes/bacterial disease etc? I do have some antibiotics.

Thanks

As part of a Hybrid TTM to eradicate Velvet, Humblefish has recommended adding 150 PPM of H2O2 to a bath for 30 mins when transferring the fish. 2 baths are recommended 6 days apart. It is still in testing phase but it shows a lot of promise. I've used it when QTing new fish with great success. Might be worth a shot.

 

[Pisanoal]

As part of a Hybrid TTM to eradicate Velvet, Humblefish has recommended adding 150 PPM of H2O2 to a bath for 30 mins when transferring the fish. 2 baths are recommended 6 days apart. It is still in testing phase but it shows a lot of promise. I've used it when QTing new fish with great success. Might be worth a shot.

Great info. Thank you very much

 

[Pisanoal]

Update

I have talked to the vendor. He has assured me shipping of a conditioned fish instead of a quarantined fish can not happen based on how he is set up. He was very helpful, if not just hard to get a hold of.

#MODS can you please delete this thread? I do not want to spread incorrect information about a vendor.

Thank you.