Pre-Quarantined fish now gasping for air

Malcontent

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Small wavemaker positioned to maximize surface agitation vs. Tetra AP150 and air stone:


1628795540868.png


Large wavemaker (~25 W) positioned to maximize surface agitation vs. water pump (~40 W) vs. Tetra AP150 and air stone:

1628795600275.png


This wavemaker turned the surface of my tank into whitewater. I could hear it in the middle of the night from upstairs and got up several times to check that water wasn't being splashed out of the tank.

The bottom pump was stuck to the bare bottom of the tank with the output aimed directly upwards. It blasted quite a lot of water upwards. The intent was to test the importance of circulation.

And while I'm at it, here's a 40X overdose of Prime:

2020-06-07 21_21_22-oxygenation 3.xlsx - Excel.png
 

BZOFIQ

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As part of a Hybrid TTM to eradicate Velvet, Humblefish has recommended adding 150 PPM of H2O2 to a bath for 30 mins when transferring the fish. 2 baths are recommended 6 days apart. It is still in testing phase but it shows a lot of promise. I've used it when QTing new fish with great success. Might be worth a shot.

Is there an ongoing thread about this? Can you link, please? Thanks.
 
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Pisanoal

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Small wavemaker positioned to maximize surface agitation vs. Tetra AP150 and air stone:


1628795540868.png


Large wavemaker (~25 W) positioned to maximize surface agitation vs. water pump (~40 W) vs. Tetra AP150 and air stone:

1628795600275.png


This wavemaker turned the surface of my tank into whitewater. I could hear it in the middle of the night from upstairs and got up several times to check that water wasn't being splashed out of the tank.

The bottom pump was stuck to the bare bottom of the tank with the output aimed directly upwards. It blasted quite a lot of water upwards. The intent was to test the importance of circulation.

And while I'm at it, here's a 40X overdose of Prime:

2020-06-07 21_21_22-oxygenation 3.xlsx - Excel.png
Super interesting...
 

JGT

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Is there an ongoing thread about this? Can you link, please? Thanks.
Probably not on R2R. Humblefish has his own forum and Hybrid TTM is well documented there.
That's where I picked it up from. Along with H2O2 for Velvet, it also incorporates a GC/Prazi application for defluking and the TTM handles the ich.
 

BZOFIQ

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Probably not on R2R. Humblefish has his own forum and Hybrid TTM is well documented there.
That's where I picked it up from. Along with H2O2 for Velvet, it also incorporates a GC/Prazi application for defluking and the TTM handles the ich.

I'll look both up, thanks.
 

Lost in the Sauce

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Update

I have talked to Mike aka Dr. Reef. He has assured me shipping of a conditioned fish instead of a quarantined fish can not happen based on how he is set up. He was very helpful, if not just hard to get a hold of.

#MODS can you please delete this thread? I do not want to spread incorrect information about a vendor.

Thank you.
Out of curiosity, What misinformation? The fish is in the condition you claim, and he's almost impossible to get a hold of, and the salinity was very low when you received it.. what is false here?

Given there has been no cause yet, doesn't it seem more responsible to let this play out and bringing an update for the future people who need that information?
 
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Pisanoal

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Out of curiosity, What misinformation? The fish is in the condition you claim, and he's almost impossible to get a hold of, and the salinity was very low when you received it.. what is false here?

Given there has been no cause yet, doesn't it seem more responsible to let this play out and bringing an update for the future people who need that information?
In my opinion, this can be misconstrued as blaming the vendor for doing a poor job. I would have left the name out of it if not for the lack of response which I have since gotten and he has been more then accommodating since then.

Information itself may not be false, but I presented it in a way that I don't think was fair
 

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@Pisanoal I will say I have purchased multiple fish from Mike and Dr. Reef, I went with the full QT as I don't have a QT tank currently setup. I did have an issue with one of the fish of the 6 that didn't make it, most likely due to stress during shipping if I had to guess. Mike was quick to respond and also provide a credit for the loss. I would definitely recommend him and the service he provides.
 
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Pisanoal

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@Pisanoal I will say I have purchased multiple fish from Mike and Dr. Reef, I went with the full QT as I don't have a QT tank currently setup. I did have an issue with one of the fish of the 6 that didn't make it, most likely due to stress during shipping if I had to guess. Mike was quick to respond and also provide a credit for the loss. I would definitely recommend him and the service he provides.

Thanks. My main issue was the lack of communication. It's easy to speculate without information. I spoke to him a little bit ago and he has assured me that shipping a conditioned fish vs a quarantined fish is not really possible. They are not kept in the same location (like the quarantined fish are at his house, and the conditioned fish are somewhere else entirely from what i gathered). He was also very helpful and promised to cover the fish even though if something does happen from this event, at this point he will be outside the warrantee (although just).

That's why I'd like the #MODS to delete this thread :). Or at least allow me to edit the title and my first post if that's possible. I don't want to give people the wrong idea about an otherwise great vendor.
 

Malcontent

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2019-10-27 17_47_04-Evaluation of oxygen transfer from bubble and free surface in bubble react...png

2019-10-27 17_38_34-lee2018.pdf - Adobe Acrobat Pro DC.png


2019-10-27 17_39_01-lee2018.pdf - Adobe Acrobat Pro DC.png


Yes, you read that right. Oxygen transfer via surface agitation is at best only 5% of total oxygen transfer from a bubble plume.
 

BZOFIQ

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Small wavemaker positioned to maximize surface agitation vs. Tetra AP150 and air stone:

...


Interesting graphs, and while I don't want to derail this thread the 2 top graphs tend to contradict themselves in one area .....

Both show opposing data on oxygen levels when the wavemaker was turned ON.

1628798639656.png


1628798668873.png


.....while confirming that a wavewaker is as effective at bringing oxygen levels....something we already knew.


1628798761002.png



1628798772941.png



To keep it on topic... I think we established the O/P has enough oxygen in his WC
 

Malcontent

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Interesting graphs, and while I don't want to derail this thread the 2 top graphs tend to contradict themselves in one area .....

Both show opposing data on oxygen levels when the wavemaker was turned ON

Small wavemaker 6W for 5.25 mg/L
Air pump 3.5W for 6.2 mg/L
Large wavemaker 25W for 6.2-6.3 mg/L
Water pump 40W for 5.5 mg/L

Baseline with the wet/dry filter only was ~4-5 mg/L (I thought these things were good at aeration!)

So, running the air pump then switching to the small wavemaker sees O2 decline. But turning everything off except the wet/dry filter then turning on the large wavemaker sees O2 rise.
 

BZOFIQ

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....


1628799756668.png


Yes, you read that right. Oxygen transfer via surface agitation is at best only 5% of total oxygen transfer from a bubble plume.

The graph only shows that the more air you flow the less of it is transferred. Either way, only a small percentage is transferred from the airstone as shown

Higher airflow does not equal more transfer.
 

Jay Hemdal

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I hope you are wrong too. That's my main concern.

Let's assume it is though.

Treatment? I don't have formalin. I have copper power, but I'm guessing at this point that's probably going to be too slow? I've heard freshwater dip to help alleviate it some in the short term? Is there anything else I could pick up from a farm store that would work faster for some immediate relief while I get him into copper? Is there something I can dip him in that would help with gill flukes/bacterial disease etc? I do have some antibiotics.

Thanks
Yes - a 5 minute FW dip will buy you some, especially if you can move the fish to a new tank. Copper takes up to 72 hours to start to work, so for sure if you go that route, get to a full dose the first day.
Jay
 

BZOFIQ

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Small wavemaker 6W for 5.25 mg/L
Air pump 3.5W for 6.2 mg/L
Large wavemaker 25W for 6.2-6.3 mg/L
Water pump 40W for 5.5 mg/L

Baseline with the wet/dry filter only was ~4-5 mg/L (I thought these things were good at aeration!)

So, running the air pump then switching to the small wavemaker sees O2 decline. But turning everything off except the wet/dry filter then turning on the large wavemaker sees O2 rise.

Agreed.

So this just shows that (air pump with air stone) is a cheap way of moving water to the top to provide oxygen exchange at the surface, something I already said, hence these large airstones being deployed in outdoor pond environments/treatment facilities where powerheads would be impossible to implement/expensive to run.

Still, nobody has been able to provide any data that shows that airstones diffuse air into the water column at any meaningful rate.
 

Lost in the Sauce

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If I was Mike I would not want this thread closed before the resolution is found. Even if it's closed Google still finds it. I would hate that to be the most recent entry.
 

Malcontent

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The graph only shows that the more air you flow the less of it is transferred. Either way, only a small percentage is transferred from the airstone as shown

Higher airflow does not equal more transfer.

It's surface mass transfer to total mass transfer at various airflow rates. The best surface transfer achieves is 5% of total mass transfer.

There are a half dozen studies with similar results. One used nitrogen diffusion and came up with 94% bubble, 6% surface.
 

Jay Hemdal

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There is definitely a disconnect here as I don't think I disagreed with you in anything you said.
That’s why I started off with “I’m not sure what your post means”.

Jay
 

BZOFIQ

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Anyway, to add to the thread. CBBs are notoriously hard to acclimate and keep long-term. Good luck to the O/P.

If Jay cannot help here, I don't know who can.
 

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