Problems Due to Bacterial Imbalances? AquaBiomics Test Results.

[naterealbig]

I find this information extremely interesting, and wonder if there are practical implications to be gleaned from it...

Not sure on the details of this tank, but i think a large coral, invertebrate, and algae population would consume the majority of the ammonia, with little left for the bacteria to process.

 

[Dana Riddle]

I've always heard that nitrifying bacteria resides on surfaces and not in the water column. I guess this test bears that out.

Nitrifying bacteria can reside in a water column or in suspended particles. Water samples used in testing for only carbonaceous BOD have to have a chemical added that will inhibit nitrifying bacteria and thus their oxygen demand.

 

[AquaBiomics]

Not sure on the details of this tank, but i think a large coral, invertebrate, and algae population would consume the majority of the ammonia, with little left for the bacteria to process.

I agree, it makes sense in terms of the known uptake of ammonia (and other N) by these organisms. I must confess, before surveying these tanks I hadnt thought enough about the implications of the large biomass of animals (and sometimes algae) for microbial population sizes.

Probably everyone agrees nitrifying microbes are critical to establish the biological filter in a tank. But the variation we're seeing in their levels across mature tanks suggests an interesting possibility, in line with that you're saying. Perhaps in some tanks, the eukaryotes (from algae to animals) take up so much of the N that little is left for microbial populations, which correspondingly decline in size.

During cycling, the levels of nitrifying microbes are related to the effectiveness of the biological filter.
For one example, the presence of nitrifying microbes at detectable levels corresponded to establishment of an effective biological filter in my live rock experiment, both in timing and in terms of evaluating live rock quality.

But perhaps in more mature tanks, where there is no question of whether a biofilter has been established, these levels indicate whether a system is more microbe-dominated or algae & animal-dominated, in terms of processing N.

 

[SDK]

Not sure on the details of this tank, but i think a large coral, invertebrate, and algae population would consume the majority of the ammonia, with little left for the bacteria to process.

That's pretty much what I was thinking, but my comment was more about what the practical implications of this information are.

For example, I might be more careful about trimming too much coral growth back at one time.

 

[lexinverts]

That's pretty much what I was thinking, but my comment was more about what the practical implications of this information are.

For example, I might be more careful about trimming too much coral growth back at one time.

An analogous situation is with a freshwater planted tank. When your plant density gets really high the plants take over a substantial portion of the biological filtration for the tank. I know this, because back in my planted tank days, I could sometimes see an ammonia spike in my planted tank if I trimmed too many plants, too fast. That was a surprise!

 

[Dana Riddle]

As a footnote, a 3" Pyramid Butterfly disappeared in this tank (a 120-gallon and 40 gallon sump). After making sure it hadn't jumped out, I became concerned that it had perished. I was unwilling to tear the rock work apart and began monitoring ammonia with a Seneye device (which does a remarkable job) and colorimetric testing (a Hach DR890 colorimeter and the salicylate method.) Never saw a spike in ammonia, nitrate nor an algae bloom. About 2 months later I found the skeletal remains. The tank contains 50 pounds of live rock and about 30 corals (frags at this point since the tank is only 8 months old.)

 

[SDK]

An analogous situation is with a freshwater planted tank. When your plant density gets really high the plants take over a substantial portion of the biological filtration for the tank. I know this, because back in my planted tank days, I could sometimes see an ammonia spike in my planted tank if I trimmed too many plants, too fast. That was a surprise!

I spent years heavily involved with planted tanks and agree.

There was also some anecdotal evidence that higher orders of freshwater plants did something chemically to suppress single celled algae growth.

I'm not sure evolving a similar ability would be as advantageous in the open ocean, but it's another interesting possible tool to be used by aquarists.

There are so still many blanks to be filled in, so I love to see efforts like this. Understanding the fundamentals of what is actually going on in our tanks is critical...

 

[Dana Riddle]

Spent a few hours in the lab this afternoon and set up some BOD5 (Five-day Biochemical Oxygen Demand) tests. One sample was taken a couple of hours after a light feeding of the fishes, another about 5 minutes after a heavy feeding. We'll see if there is a difference. Two more - one sample was spiked with ammonium hydroxide to a concentration of 0.37 milligrams per liter; the other was spiked with a sterile solution of sugar - the former to see if nitrifiers are in the water column/suspended particles and the latter to determine if carbonaceous bacteria are present.

 

[Sidius]

I apologize if this has been mentioned, I have not read all three pages of posts yet but I thought it was expected that nitrifying bacteria reside on surfaces and not in the water column so wouldn't it be expected to not see them free floating in the water sample? or am I mistaken in how the test sample was taken/used?

 

[Jason mack]

Yes, phytoplankton additions are made at least once daily to feed the Goniopora specimens. Perhaps this is the reason for low nitrifying bacteria populations? The phyto acts as a nutrient mop and out-competes bacteria? Pure speculation on my part....

This is interesting ...I've always had higher nitrates but I add phytoplankton every day...could this be contributing to my high nitrates ...my tank always runs between 25 -50 ppm ...

 

[Dana Riddle]

This is interesting ...I've always had higher nitrates but I add phytoplankton every day...could this be contributing to my high nitrates ...my tank always runs between 25 -50 ppm ...

The nitrate and phosphorus concentrations dropped after I began phyto additions and I suppose it's because the algae acts as a nutrient sponge. Speculation on my part...

 

[Dana Riddle]

I apologize if this has been mentioned, I have not read all three pages of posts yet but I thought it was expected that nitrifying bacteria reside on surfaces and not in the water column so wouldn't it be expected to not see them free floating in the water sample? or am I mistaken in how the test sample was taken/used?

I set up a test this afternoon to see if nitrifiers are in the water column/suspended particles. I'll have results Wednesday. I'm fairly certain they are but the test will tell the tale.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I set up a test this afternoon to see if nitrifiers are in the water column/suspended particles. I'll have results Wednesday. I'm fairly certain they are but the test will tell the tale.

I’m with you on this one, looking forward to see the results

 

[AquaBiomics]

I set up a test this afternoon to see if nitrifiers are in the water column/suspended particles. I'll have results Wednesday. I'm fairly certain they are but the test will tell the tale.

In response to some interesting questions from Lasse yesterday, I dug deeper and found that in addition to the ammonia-oxidizing microbes I've already reported, most samples also contain another less widely discussed group, the family Pirellulaceae, which also have ammonia-oxidizing activities.

These were more abundant in your biofilm sample (>2% of the community) than your water (0.5%), but still clearly present in the water. So at the DNA level we have evidence for two ammonia-oxidizing groups in your water: Cenarchaeaceae and Pirellulaceae. (Its still not clear from my reading whether the latter group can oxidize ammonia in aerobic conditions, but thats my only delay in adding it to the report)

I will be very interested to see if your measurements of ammonia metabolism support this.

Now you've really got me thinking. Can we do something similar for nitrite using BOD5? The reason I ask is that NOB are undetectable in a greater number of tanks than AOB/AOA. And as people have been discussing, other organisms (like algae and some animals) actively compete for ammonia. It would be interesting to test for nitrite oxidizing activity in your water, if its possible to do something analogous to the ammonia test.

 

[Dana Riddle]

In response to some interesting questions from Lasse yesterday, I dug deeper and found that in addition to the ammonia-oxidizing microbes I've already reported, most samples also contain another less widely discussed group, the family Pirellulaceae, which also have ammonia-oxidizing activities.

These were more abundant in your biofilm sample (>2% of the community) than your water (0.5%), but still clearly present in the water. So at the DNA level we have evidence for two ammonia-oxidizing groups in your water: Cenarchaeaceae and Pirellulaceae. (Its still not clear from my reading whether the latter group can oxidize ammonia in aerobic conditions, but thats my only delay in adding it to the report)

I will be very interested to see if your measurements of ammonia metabolism support this.

Now you've really got me thinking. Can we do something similar for nitrite using BOD5? The reason I ask is that NOB are undetectable in a greater number of tanks than AOB/AOA. And as people have been discussing, other organisms (like algae and some animals) actively compete for ammonia. It would be interesting to test for nitrite oxidizing activity in your water, if its possible to do something analogous to the ammonia test.

Yes, I'll take a look. It might be possible to continue with the ammonia sample if nitrite and enough dissolved oxygen are present. I don't have nitrite reagents available, but will order and should have them late next week.

 

[Dana Riddle]

In response to some interesting questions from Lasse yesterday, I dug deeper and found that in addition to the ammonia-oxidizing microbes I've already reported, most samples also contain another less widely discussed group, the family Pirellulaceae, which also have ammonia-oxidizing activities.

These were more abundant in your biofilm sample (>2% of the community) than your water (0.5%), but still clearly present in the water. So at the DNA level we have evidence for two ammonia-oxidizing groups in your water: Cenarchaeaceae and Pirellulaceae. (Its still not clear from my reading whether the latter group can oxidize ammonia in aerobic conditions, but thats my only delay in adding it to the report)

I will be very interested to see if your measurements of ammonia metabolism support this.

Now you've really got me thinking. Can we do something similar for nitrite using BOD5? The reason I ask is that NOB are undetectable in a greater number of tanks than AOB/AOA. And as people have been discussing, other organisms (like algae and some animals) actively compete for ammonia. It would be interesting to test for nitrite oxidizing activity in your water, if its possible to do something analogous to the ammonia test.

Nitrite reagents on order.

 

[UCF Alum]

This is a good topic and an interesting test that we can have performed outside of ICP. My only question is that if a particular strain shows lacking population, is there anything we can do about it? Or is this test just for acumen?

 

[AquaBiomics]

Nitrite reagents on order.

This is really great, looking forward to reading about how this goes!

 

[AquaBiomics]

My only question is that if a particular strain shows lacking population, is there anything we can do about it?

This is an important question. I believe the answer is absolutely yes, but with the important qualifier that we don't know exactly how yet. (By itself that may sound like nonsense, but please read on)

What I mean is this. We established these little artificial ecosystems in a box. The microbial communities in our aquariums are the results of decisions we made. Between inoculating the aquarium with bacteria in the beginning, to maintaining a particular water chemistry, to importing and exporting nutrients from the system, or directly adding bottled bacteria, we exert a lot of control over these ecosystems.

We've been farming microbes the whole time, but without being able to see what we were growing. Now that we can see them, I don't think it will take too long to learn how our actions affect them. People are already conducting experiments to be tested within the next batch or two... including several of us in my local club who are working to increase diversity in our tanks based on an initial test.

I think the same community that has collectively figured out how to make Acropora thrive in their living rooms will have no problem developing practices for adjusting the microbial community, given the ability to see what they're growing. To be clear, the immediate next steps are experiments, rather than prescriptions. But I think it won't be long before we (the community) develop evidence-based practices for making specific changes to these microbial communities.

 

[UCF Alum]

This is an important question. I believe the answer is absolutely yes, but with the important qualifier that we don't know exactly how yet. (By itself that may sound like nonsense, but please read on)

What I mean is this. We established these little artificial ecosystems in a box. The microbial communities in our aquariums are the results of decisions we made. Between inoculating the aquarium with bacteria in the beginning, to maintaining a particular water chemistry, to importing and exporting nutrients from the system, or directly adding bottled bacteria, we exert a lot of control over these ecosystems.

We've been farming microbes the whole time, but without being able to see what we were growing. Now that we can see them, I don't think it will take too long to learn how our actions affect them. People are already conducting experiments to be tested within the next batch or two... including several of us in my local club who are working to increase diversity in our tanks based on an initial test.

I think the same community that has collectively figured out how to make Acropora thrive in their living rooms will have no problem developing practices for adjusting the microbial community, given the ability to see what they're growing.

I look forward to the day we can do this to make our glass box environments better.