Proper combination of Tropic Marin products - Carbon dosing + All-for-Reef + Reef Actif

[TexanCanuck]

BACKGROUND:

• I have a 145 gallon (total water volume) mixed reef ... predominantly LPS and Softies but expanding my SPS collection .. the tank has been running for >1 year
• I am using Tropic Marin's Pro-Reef salt mix
• I used to run a refugium for nutrient control but recently switched to carbon dosing ... I've found more success at controlling nutrients, my sump is "cleaner" without the refugium and my life is simpler without having macroalgae and associated growth lights to maintain. Right now I am using NOPOX through a DOS unit and adding 15ml over 24 hours. For the past month my Nitrate and Phosphate have settled in around 5ppm and 0.01ppm, respectively
• I am currently using traditional 2-part dosing to maintain alkalinity and calcium via another DOS unit (using BRS' pharma-grade soda ash and calcium chloride). I use a Trident to control how much of each component I dose in order to maintain my targets of 9 dKH and 420 ppm, respectively.
• While I am getting "OK" growth and color from my corals, I'd like to see if I can do better. I admit that judging "good enough" is highly subjective, so I really just want to know that I'm doing everything I can to protect my investment in corals. In particular, I travel quite frequently and would like to know my biofilter is very robust and that my corals get as much nutrition from my lights and water column as they can (so they don't have to rely on target feeding regularly).

MY GOAL:

• I'd like to further simplify my life and move from 2-part dosing to All-for-Reef (hoping I will get more "balanced" minerals, add trace elements, and eliminating one dose)
• As long as I'm moving to Tropic Marin's solution for minerals, I'd also like to switch away from NOPOX to NP-Bacto-Balance. I've been frustrated with the amount of evaporation I get with NOPOX (given the high amount of ethanol in the product) and I've recently discovered that NOPOX can NOT be stored in my DDR (go ahead - ask me how I know)
• Finally, after reading up on Reef-Actif I'm keen to give it a try as well. If I understand it correctly, the biopolymers in the product help improve nutrient uptake by the corals and other microflora. I'm hoping that this product will further help me stabilize nutrient levels without further stressing dissolved oxygen levels (which seems to be an inevitable byproduct of carbon dosing) with the added bonus of making nutrients int he water column more available to my corals

MY QUESTION:

• Is the combination of Pro-Reef Salt + All-for-Reef + NP-Bacto-Balance + Reef-Actif overkill? It is not 100% clear to me if Reef-Actif adds anything that isn't already provided by the combination of the first three. Also, since I'm already at 5ppm/0.01ppm Nitrate/Phosphate, can I realistically expect further benefits from adding it?
• Is it safe to combine all four of these products in my tank?
• Is there a logical sequence to implement these products? Can I implement all three of them at once, or do I need to start with one and implement the others a few weeks apart? If so, which one should I start with?

Thanks in advance for your perspectives.

@Lou Ekus - as the manufacturer, any input you can provide would be appreciated.

 

[GoVols]

I’ll bump you up.

“All for Reef” does contain a carbon source, not sure about Reef-Actif either.

 

[reefluvrr]

I am curious how does your LPS look in terms of how "inflated" the tissue polyp looks with running lower nutrients levels via carbon dosing?

I haved used tropic marin carbon dosing and all4reef for almost 2 years now. Whenever I tried to lower my PO4 levels below 0.7 my LPS were never inflated waving their tentacles with water flow...

 

[PeterC99]

Following alone for the nutrient control. I have chaeto Refugium that can occasionally give me swings and my Acros get mad at me.

I already use TM Pro for my salt mix and TM All For Reef to supplement my calcium reactor for my high demand reef. Coral colors have popped since staring TM A4R.

 

[Jw258]

The carbon source in AFR is nominal, it is present in the calcium formate that delivered KH in an organic form to stop the compound from precipitation. TM have told me before not to worry about the amount of carbon being added from AFR and that it isn't comparable to the volumes used when carbon dosing.

Interested to see what others say as I'm planning the same method when I upgrade.

 

[LuizW13]

Following along, I'm also using TMP and AFR on my 50g. I'm thinking about trying one of their carbon dosing products- been struggling just a tad bit with controlling phosphate.

 

[jtichenor]

I am currently running AFR and NP Bacto Balance. I have to add calcium to my system every month or so for some reason. Other than that, everything is looking fine.

fwiw - I mix up my own AFR using the 4 components (carbo, mag, A, K) to keep the cost as low as possible.

 

[LuizW13]

I am currently running AFR and NP Bacto Balance. I have to add calcium to my system every month or so for some reason. Other than that, everything is looking fine.

fwiw - I mix up my own AFR using the 4 components (carbo, mag, A, P) to keep the cost as low as possible.

You don't use the actual AFR powder?

 

[jtichenor]

You don't use the actual AFR powder?

Nope. I purchased this kit before the powder was available and stuck with it. https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/10-l...s-trace-elements-kit-tropic-marin-bundle.html

 

[GoVols]

The carbon source in AFR is nominal, it is present in the calcium formate that delivered KH in an organic form to stop the compound from precipitation. TM have told me before not to worry about the amount of carbon being added from AFR and that it isn't comparable to the volumes used when carbon dosing.

Interested to see what others say as I'm planning the same method when I upgrade.

Lol, I have a 110 gallon, that was intaking 2ppm of alk per day.

Dose 73mls per day and see if you get cyano from All for Reef.

Have also read reports from other reefers that AFR dropped their phos and nitrates so low that dinos came into play.

 

[Hans-Werner]

• Is the combination of Pro-Reef Salt + All-for-Reef + NP-Bacto-Balance + Reef-Actif overkill? It is not 100% clear to me if Reef-Actif adds anything that isn't already provided by the combination of the first three. Also, since I'm already at 5ppm/0.01ppm Nitrate/Phosphate, can I realistically expect further benefits from adding it?
• Is it safe to combine all four of these products in my tank?
• Is there a logical sequence to implement these products? Can I implement all three of them at once, or do I need to start with one and implement the others a few weeks apart? If so, which one should I start with?

I am Hans-Werner Balling, employee of Dr. Biener GmbH, Tropic Marin and I have developed, tested and I am using these products.

The suggested combination is no overkill if the organic carbon which is metabolized most rapidly by bacteria, NP-Bacto-Balance, is dosed with care.

As Jw258 already has stated the formate in All-For-Reef doesn't provide much energy to the bacteria and supports only little bacterial growth, in contrast to most other monomeric organic carbon sources.

Reef Actif adds organic carbon exclusively as biopolymers. Biopolymers are long-chain organic compounds produced by organisms, mainly as structural supports for plants and algae. This means they make the plant or algal parts hard, elastic or tough. In animals biopolymers form exoskeletons and also make them hard and tough.

The degradation of biopolymers requires special biochemical "tools" (enzymes) which only specialized microorganisms like some bacteria and fungi can provide. For humans most of these biopolymers are "dietary fibre" and are not digested. In fish a symbiotic bacterial flora helps to digest algae and plant material in a fermentation process which releases volatile fatty acids like acetic acid. The volatile fatty acids are taken up by the fish or further degraded to CO2 by other bacteria.

Reef Actif supplies exactly these prebiotic biopolymers which are slowly "digested" by microorganisms and support a diverse and beneficial microflora. Since the process is so slow it creates no immediate oxygen demand and oxygen consumption proceeds over a longer period of time.

Of the suggested products only NP-Bacto-Balance creates a more rapid bacterial growth and oxygen consumption. However, at the recommended dosages no water clouding or visible bacterial growth should form.

You are reporting slow coral growth at a phosphate concentration of 0.01 ppm. The coral growth may be phosphate limited and a phosphate concentration around 0.1 ppm may support better coral growth.

 

[Jw258]

Lol, I have a 110 gallon, that was intaking 2ppm of alk per day.

Dose 73mls per day and see if you get cyano from All for Reef.

Have also read reports from other reefers that AFR dropped their phos and nitrates so low that dinos came into play.

I'm 84l net, circa 18.6gal. I use say 45ml AFR (mixed from the dehydrated product as per instructions). I'm adding 0.53ml of AFR per litre of tank water. That's three times the rate you mention.

The only time I've had dinos is when I've stripped the tank of organics by overdosing phyto. Ive not had cyano in this system which is almost 2 years old or in the one which predated it which was 18 months old before upgrading. I don't know what the DKH consumption rate is of my tank but I'd invite Hanz to quickly work it out. I'm sure I'd just have to multiply the replenishment rate per litre by the amount I am adding per liter.

Current fts to give an idea of why I use so much AFR.

I've spoken with Hanz before as I was concerned about using almost twice the recommended dosage of AFR. I slowly increased the AFR use and tampered off the use of kalkwasser and had no I'll effects on pH or O2.

I would deffo give the product a go but if your 2dkh down a day, you might want to contemplate using the a- k+ in addition to AFR as I do fine certain macro and trace elements deplete faster than water changes and AFR can replenish at the rates my tank consumes.

 

[GoVols]

I'm 84l net, circa 18.6gal. I use say 45ml AFR (mixed from the dehydrated product as per instructions). I'm adding 0.53ml of AFR per litre of tank water. That's three times the rate you mention.

The only time I've had dinos is when I've stripped the tank of organics by overdosing phyto. Ive not had cyano in this system which is almost 2 years old or in the one which predated it which was 18 months old before upgrading. I don't know what the DKH consumption rate is of my tank but I'd invite Hanz to quickly work it out. I'm sure I'd just have to multiply the replenishment rate per litre by the amount I am adding per liter.

Current fts to give an idea of why I use so much AFR.

I've spoken with Hanz before as I was concerned about using almost twice the recommended dosage of AFR. I slowly increased the AFR use and tampered off the use of kalkwasser and had no I'll effects on pH or O2.

I would deffo give the product a go but if your 2dkh down a day, you might want to contemplate using the a- k+ in addition to AFR as I do fine certain macro and trace elements deplete faster than water changes and AFR can replenish at the rates my tank consumes.

Thanks!

Tried it and it was just not a good fit.

Just wanted to give the OP a heads up.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The carbon source in AFR is nominal, it is present in the calcium formate that delivered KH in an organic form to stop the compound from precipitation. TM have told me before not to worry about the amount of carbon being added from AFR and that it isn't comparable to the volumes used when carbon dosing.

It's not just the volume per se, it's the fact that the formate has almost no chemical energy when oxidized to CO2 as it is nearly there already. Not nearly so much energy as a similar amount of acetate. Thus, 1 g of formate does almost nothing while 1 g of acetate would drive far more bacterial growth.

 

[Jw258]

It's not just the volume per se, it's the fact that the formate has almost no chemical energy when oxidized to CO2 as it is nearly there already. Not nearly so much energy as a similar amount of acetate. Thus, 1 g of formate does almost nothing while 1 g of acetate would drive far more bacterial growth.

That's useful to know. Thanks.

 

[GoVols]

It's not just the volume per se, it's the fact that the formate has almost no chemical energy when oxidized to CO2 as it is nearly there already. Not nearly so much energy as a similar amount of acetate. Thus, 1 g of formate does almost nothing while 1 g of acetate would drive far more bacterial growth.

Randy,
I think my issue (fueling cyano) was that I dosing all the 73mls per day, at a one time dose.

I was not splitting the 73mls over a 24 hour time period.

Could that have made a deference?

Thank you

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
I think my issue (fueling cyano) was that I dosing all the 73mls per day, at a one time dose.

I was not splitting the 73mls over a 24 hour time period.

Could that have made a deference?

Thank you

I don't know if that encourages cyano or not. It might, since all other users will be limited in how fast they can take it up so it leaves more around longer.

 

[Jw258]

Randy,
I think my issue (fueling cyano) was that I dosing all the 73mls per day, at a one time dose.

I was not splitting the 73mls over a 24 hour time period.

Could that have made a deference?

Thank you

That's interesting. I dose mine every other hour on a bell shaped curve the curve follows the ab+ ramp up and ramp down, but is on a two hour delay. Seems to keep KH consistent.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I dosed vinegar spread over the light cycle, with more mid day, to reduce concerns abut the potential decline in O2 and pH.

 

[netsequent]

I am Hans-Werner Balling, employee of Dr. Biener GmbH, Tropic Marin and I have developed, tested and I am using these products.

The suggested combination is no overkill if the organic carbon which is metabolized most rapidly by bacteria, NP-Bacto-Balance, is dosed with care.

As Jw258 already has stated the formate in All-For-Reef doesn't provide much energy to the bacteria and supports only little bacterial growth, in contrast to most other monomeric organic carbon sources.

Reef Actif adds organic carbon exclusively as biopolymers. Biopolymers are long-chain organic compounds produced by organisms, mainly as structural supports for plants and algae. This means they make the plant or algal parts hard, elastic or tough. In animals biopolymers form exoskeletons and also make them hard and tough.

The degradation of biopolymers requires special biochemical "tools" (enzymes) which only specialized microorganisms like some bacteria and fungi can provide. For humans most of these biopolymers are "dietary fibre" and are not digested. In fish a symbiotic bacterial flora helps to digest algae and plant material in a fermentation process which releases volatile fatty acids like acetic acid. The volatile fatty acids are taken up by the fish or further degraded to CO2 by other bacteria.

Reef Actif supplies exactly these prebiotic biopolymers which are slowly "digested" by microorganisms and support a diverse and beneficial microflora. Since the process is so slow it creates no immediate oxygen demand and oxygen consumption proceeds over a longer period of time.

Of the suggested products only NP-Bacto-Balance creates a more rapid bacterial growth and oxygen consumption. However, at the recommended dosages no water clouding or visible bacterial growth should form.

You are reporting slow coral growth at a phosphate concentration of 0.01 ppm. The coral growth may be phosphate limited and a phosphate concentration around 0.1 ppm may support better coral growth.

I’ve been using these carbon dosing products and love them. My prior solution made it difficult to maintain nutrient levels and keep the tank free of Cyanobacteria. No more nuisances.