Proving our nitrate test kits are accurate, post one sample read off 2 or more testers

[brandon429]

The goal of the post is we're trying to get nitrate to read consistently among testers, since people will make very impactful decisions about tank care/procedure based off a single, unverified reading.
So, for this thread, lets take any water sample and post up what 2 or more testers look like on that sample, to see if we're all making informed tank decisions off these testers correctly.

Id even accept 2x measures using the same name brand test kit (but different kits) / we're looking for anything other than just one reading/unverified.

Pls link us your pics/readings compared to the indicator cards so we can compile patterns of nitrate tests being accurate, or inaccurate, in the hobby currently.
B

Where the idea comes from

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/api-nitrate-test-kit-inaccurate.135205/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fighting-high-nitrates.318669/

that’s just two for example. As I watch nitrate threads in the chem forum run currently, I’m shocked no chemists are discussing the massive variance reported when two testers are compared. Entire tank strategies are developed using any stated number. You can literally just post any number and a full on strategy for nitrate reduction or raising will be provided. I watch for pages to see where verification is requested and it’s not~ so if we can get a few matching brand kits stating an equal reading here, then no verification should be required.

I have a pressing concern that for thirty years in the hobby we’ve been ballparking but thinking we have total control/understanding over core params


For a fact ghost reads of .25 ammonia have set our cycling knowledge back...let’s see how nitrate fares, accurate low level ammonia colorimetric testing is a majority fail so how about nitrate

 

[brandon429]

Bump

Because thousand dollar design decisions are being made using the same testers above we show to be horse shoeing the real numbers.

Does anyone have two different brands of nitrate testers we could see the final results off a given tank sample

 

[taricha]

@Rick Mathew has more nitrate test data than any human alive. Maybe he can be persuaded to share a sliver.

 

[brandon429]

I recall an old reefbuilders article where a reef club all showed up with testers and did the experiment, cannot recall link though too long ago. I think the results were not horribly skewed, some got it right matched.

still think someone could make a smashing good article by calibrating a known .25 sample of ammonia with lab quality gear, a .5 one as well both unmarked and alike the other samples in clarity/fill line etc, seal off the vials in little lots and ship them to participants to report back using a simple code grid. see how many people track the zeroes and the .25's correctly, then make a writeup on how that has influenced the role of microbiology and cycling in the reefkeeping hobby.

I am not sure chemistry-wise how well ammonia samples set to exacting levels hold for shipment... if sealed I suspect they'd hold well and accurate. my kitchen cleaner has no trouble holding strength day to day.

found a new post on the testing discrepancy, this one is NYOS vs API.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nitrate-testing-should-i-trust-api.632401/


What does this do to about twenty years of logged chemistry interactions in reef forums, it calls accuracy into question.

 

[Dan_P]

The goal of the post is we're trying to get nitrate to read consistently among testers, since people will make very impactful decisions about tank care/procedure based off a single, unverified reading.
So, for this thread, lets take any water sample and post up what 2 or more testers look like on that sample, to see if we're all making informed tank decisions off these testers correctly.

Id even accept 2x measures using the same name brand test kit (but different kits) / we're looking for anything other than just one reading/unverified.

Pls link us your pics/readings compared to the indicator cards so we can compile patterns of nitrate tests being accurate, or inaccurate, in the hobby currently.
B

Where the idea comes from

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/api-nitrate-test-kit-inaccurate.135205/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fighting-high-nitrates.318669/

that’s just two for example. As I watch nitrate threads in the chem forum run currently, I’m shocked no chemists are discussing the massive variance reported when two testers are compared. Entire tank strategies are developed using any stated number. You can literally just post any number and a full on strategy for nitrate reduction or raising will be provided. I watch for pages to see where verification is requested and it’s not~ so if we can get a few matching brand kits stating an equal reading here, then no verification should be required.

I have a pressing concern that for thirty years in the hobby we’ve been ballparking but thinking we have total control/understanding over core params


For a fact ghost reads of .25 ammonia have set our cycling knowledge back...let’s see how nitrate fares, accurate low level ammonia colorimetric testing is a majority fail so how about nitrate

I like this approach. I hope response rate is good.

Hey, question for you. Is ball parking measurements good enough for the average hobbyist?

 

[brandon429]

I think so as long as we’re not ballparking during cycling or trying to make large planning changes to a tank based on nitrate unverified.

(Ongoing recommend is not even testing for nitrate and nitrite during cycle in our ammonia + submersion time cycling thread...single param testing is less error points to be able to claim a stuck cycle)

Really though, that first mislead where no detectable nitrate or stuck ammonia causes doubt about what bacteria do or tolerate in a cycle has lasting effects which are hesitation and doubt and that’s what gha likes. Dinos like to be allowed to mass into full tankdom. Cyano as well, I wish we could link all at once right here the number of posts I’ve seen written that list loss of filtration bacteria as a reason someone can’t get into a tank and stop a takeover / loss event early on

Misreading for nitrate (lack of) and or ammonia (.25 constant) early on puts a permanent doubt or at minimum a long-lasting one, where the reefer starts by taking a back seat in tank direction and often ends that way vs starting assured, reefing interim confidently and stopping typical invasions before they amass...commanding the direction of his or her tank from day one which is a noted benefit of weaning off testers to make every move in reefing

 

[eron]

If your really not confident in your "testers", why not just do a gravimetric titration analysis. Pick a standard (ex: nitron) to titrate for complete stoichiometric completion to precipitate out the product (ex: nitron nitrate), then weigh the product. (1) At end, should be able to relate quantity of standard to quantity of unknown nitrate. Maybe ion chromatography (3) or an absorption/colorimetric analysis (4). Of course, its never that simple due to complexity of the saltwater having interfering species, so maybe masking or filtering is needed.

Once you have the more "accurate" results from a more reliable technique then compare it to your home test kit.

(1) The oldest, method of nitrate determination by gravimetric titration, page 345 (2) more modern and probably easier volumetric titration with sodium nitrite standard (3) ion chromatograpy analysis (4) absorption spectroscopy method

 

[Tamberav]

While I don't have more than 1 Nitrate test kit to share...

I will say when I have dosed Seachem Flourish Nitrogen based on their formula, my Red Sea Low range Nitrate test kit has been accurate. When I dosed for a 0.25 rise, my test kit increased by 0.25.

 

[brandon429]

Check out this thread, see my entire thesis at work

Lost dollars

Lost enjoyment

Absolutely will not be accessing rocks for hand guiding, this current cycle won’t even complete

Ammonia in new tank

Thanks Beasl. I think Im getting a grasp of how this all works. My latest ammonia reading does appear to have a yellowish tint for sure. I just want to be sure everything is right before I start adding predator fish. Its amazing how much you learn with just an empty tank. Ive logged...

www.reef2reef.com

Test kits actually set people back
Cause misdirection


There is no enduring free ammonia in the hundredths ppm can’t occur and 100% of seneye owners referees more than eight dollars spent on the test will not disagree.


We have been shortchanged in the way we’re taught to cycle reef tanks, we do not have reliable measurement tools.


We do have biology, verified submersion time with fish present the whole duration, and proven ammonia that does not increase after ten days straight.

But if seachem gives a .02, reefing enjoyment drops to zero and we lose someone to hesitation it hurts me deep in the medulla, we want absolutely confident reef cyclers, we do not need test kits to cycle any reef tank.

All reef tanks produce ammonia-it’s quickly uptaken

perhaps these testers catch transitional measures or some other confound, but his ammonia is unimpactful even if he buys no further items or takes further action.

 

[Rick Mathew]

The goal of the post is we're trying to get nitrate to read consistently among testers, since people will make very impactful decisions about tank care/procedure based off a single, unverified reading.
So, for this thread, lets take any water sample and post up what 2 or more testers look like on that sample, to see if we're all making informed tank decisions off these testers correctly.

Id even accept 2x measures using the same name brand test kit (but different kits) / we're looking for anything other than just one reading/unverified.

Pls link us your pics/readings compared to the indicator cards so we can compile patterns of nitrate tests being accurate, or inaccurate, in the hobby currently.
B

Where the idea comes from

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/api-nitrate-test-kit-inaccurate.135205/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fighting-high-nitrates.318669/

that’s just two for example. As I watch nitrate threads in the chem forum run currently, I’m shocked no chemists are discussing the massive variance reported when two testers are compared. Entire tank strategies are developed using any stated number. You can literally just post any number and a full on strategy for nitrate reduction or raising will be provided. I watch for pages to see where verification is requested and it’s not~ so if we can get a few matching brand kits stating an equal reading here, then no verification should be required.

I have a pressing concern that for thirty years in the hobby we’ve been ballparking but thinking we have total control/understanding over core params


For a fact ghost reads of .25 ammonia have set our cycling knowledge back...let’s see how nitrate fares, accurate low level ammonia colorimetric testing is a majority fail so how about nitrate

Here is a link to some Nitrate testing data...If you look in the section "ACCURACY" you will find data on the Red Sea Pro & NYOS Nitrate test kits. I Used these as reference points to give me some type of validation to the test procedure I was working on developing....I also attached the file.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/test-meter-for-testing-nitrates.530004/

As I noted in response to your post titled "The greatest roadblock to understanding microbiology in reefing is titration testing" A large amount of the testing error is not so much related to the "kit" but the Poor laboratory practices and "sloppy" test methodology IMO ....My experience with testing at LFS has not been good with regards to testing services....let's just leave it at that!
I am working on a article related to "Testing from a Quality System View Point"...It addresses some of what you are getting at...

Hope this helps...



rick

 

[Rick Mathew]

The goal of the post is we're trying to get nitrate to read consistently among testers, since people will make very impactful decisions about tank care/procedure based off a single, unverified reading.
So, for this thread, lets take any water sample and post up what 2 or more testers look like on that sample, to see if we're all making informed tank decisions off these testers correctly.

Id even accept 2x measures using the same name brand test kit (but different kits) / we're looking for anything other than just one reading/unverified.

Pls link us your pics/readings compared to the indicator cards so we can compile patterns of nitrate tests being accurate, or inaccurate, in the hobby currently.
B

Where the idea comes from

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/api-nitrate-test-kit-inaccurate.135205/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fighting-high-nitrates.318669/

that’s just two for example. As I watch nitrate threads in the chem forum run currently, I’m shocked no chemists are discussing the massive variance reported when two testers are compared. Entire tank strategies are developed using any stated number. You can literally just post any number and a full on strategy for nitrate reduction or raising will be provided. I watch for pages to see where verification is requested and it’s not~ so if we can get a few matching brand kits stating an equal reading here, then no verification should be required.

I have a pressing concern that for thirty years in the hobby we’ve been ballparking but thinking we have total control/understanding over core params


For a fact ghost reads of .25 ammonia have set our cycling knowledge back...let’s see how nitrate fares, accurate low level ammonia colorimetric testing is a majority fail so how about nitrate

Here is a BRS Tv Video That touches on the issue of testing ...

Can you trust your saltwater test kit OR your testing skills on your reef tank? - BRStv Investigates

A successful reefer is really proficient at maintaining stable aquarium water chemistry because ultimately that stable water is what keeps corals happy and thriving. Getting consistently accurate water test results at home, for a reasonable price, is important to make the necessary adjustments

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[User1]

I'm not a huge fan of these sorts of studies using hobbyist data. Too much room for error because of the human factor as noted above in post 10. Even the BRS video touched upon it. At least with a tool such as Triton there is both consistency with regards to how the test is conducted measurement wise and of course eyes on the same.

Also not sure why BRS used the average instead of the 90th percentile.

 

[Rick Mathew]

I'm not a huge fan of these sorts of studies using hobbyist data. Too much room for error because of the human factor as noted above in post 10. Even the BRS video touched upon it. At least with a tool such as Triton there is both consistency with regards to how the test is conducted measurement wise and of course eyes on the same.

Also not sure why BRS used the average instead of the 90th percentile.

I agree....IMO using the average is not a good way to set the target. Setting the target using a reliable know solution is the best way to look at accuracy as well as repeatability....Too much bias in using averages as well as one is not sure what the correct answer is.