Purple Tang in QT - Skin Issue

[cshouston]

Aquarium type: Quarantine tank
Aquarium water volume: 20g
Filtration type: Sponge and a powerhead
Lighting: Aqueon Marine Clip-On
How long...established? 2 months

Water quality
Temperature: 80.2F
pH: 8.0
Salinity: 34ppt/1.025
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm
Copper: 2ppm Copper Power

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? No
Respiration rate of affected fish: 96 (after netting and freshwater bath, so now stressed)
Are the affected fish still feeding? Yes, very well

I have a Purple Tang in QT that is only a few days shy of reaching 30 days in 2ppm of copper power. Today, for the the first time, I noticed what looks like its skin sloughing off. It’s not actually spots per se, more than bits of flesh hanging off. Also, there appears to be some reddening at the caudal peduncle.

I removed the fish and gave it a freshwater bath for a few minutes. I was unable to see anything that suggests flukes as it defecated as soon as it went into the bath. The feces was well formed and colored, clearly seaweed that is offered every other day, not white and no sign of internal parasites.

I returned it to the QT tank and decided to dose general cure now instead of waiting for the end of the copper treatment period. Any information to help with a diagnosis and further treatment plan would be greatly appreciated.

@Jay Hemdal the hits just keep on coming for my fish in quarantine!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ohhh Noooo! So the picture is post FW dip? Is there any chance that you missed the development of spots over the past few days? I cannot account for spots like this showing up in just a day. Do you see ANY spots on the fins? That is one thing that has me wondering - everything seems to point to a moderately severe case of Cryptocaryon except for two things: the rapid onset and what appears to be a complete lack of spots on the fish's fins.

The respiration rate is a bit elevated. Not enough to push me into thinking this is velvet, but close. Can you let the fish settle down and take another measurement?

I don't suppose you have access to a microscope? A skin biopsy would tell all.

My differential diagnosis is, at this point: Cryptocaryon vs. excess mucus production vs Amyloodinium (velvet) vs. something else (grin).

I know the underlying question is; in Copper Power, how could it be a protozoal infection? I can't answer that, except perhaps the copper test you are using isn't accurate. Copper Power can be ramped up to 2.5 can't it?

Jay

 

[cshouston]

Ohhh Noooo! So the picture is post FW dip? Is there any chance that you missed the development of spots over the past few days? I cannot account for spots like this showing up in just a day. Do you see ANY spots on the fins? That is one thing that has me wondering - everything seems to point to a moderately severe case of Cryptocaryon except for two things: the rapid onset and what appears to be a complete lack of spots on the fish's fins.

The respiration rate is a bit elevated. Not enough to push me into thinking this is velvet, but close. Can you let the fish settle down and take another measurement?

I don't suppose you have access to a microscope? A skin biopsy would tell all.

My differential diagnosis is, at this point: Cryptocaryon vs. excess mucus production vs Amyloodinium (velvet) vs. something else (grin).

I know the underlying question is; in Copper Power, how could it be a protozoal infection? I can't answer that, except perhaps the copper test you are using isn't accurate. Copper Power can be ramped up to 2.5 can't it?

Jay

It’s possible that I missed something developing, but how likely? I can’t say for sure. I look at all of my quarantined fish daily, but I’m not the best at scraping the glass as often as I should on those tanks versus the display tank. This is definitely the first time I’m noticing it.

I see no spots on the pectoral or caudal fins. Respiration didn’t appear elevated prior to the freshwater dip, but I will get another measurement once it settles back down. Also, all photos were taken towards the end of the freshwater dip.

Copper power can be ramped up to 2.5ppm. Levels are checked with a Hanna colorimeter. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to a microscope, but it’s something I’m considering investing in for the future.

I just fed everyone mysis and the tang chowed down, so there’s no loss of appetite even post fw-dip.

 

[cshouston]

Just checked respiration and down to 76 per minute.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

O.K., I do not think that is Amyloodinium (velvet) then. That leaves Cryptocaryon or mucus production (for no discernable reason). I'm really at a loss to suggest anything. The Hanna checker makes it unlikely that your copper level is testing incorrectly low. I just don't see how Crypt. would show up like this at the END of a quarantine period. That leaves idiopathic mucus production - basically the skin's mucus producing cells are just producing too much for an unknown reason. I've seen this in tangs before, but usually just a few spots, and they tend to look cone shaped. That would account for no spots on the fins though (that's why I asked about that) as the mucus producing cells aren't present there.

Still, every time I look at the video it shouts "Cryptocaryon"~!

Anyone else have an idea?

Jay

 

[cshouston]

O.K., I do not think that is Amyloodinium (velvet) then. That leaves Cryptocaryon or mucus production (for no discernable reason). I'm really at a loss to suggest anything. The Hanna checker makes it unlikely that your copper level is testing incorrectly low. I just don't see how Crypt. would show up like this at the END of a quarantine period. That leaves idiopathic mucus production - basically the skin's mucus producing cells are just producing too much for an unknown reason. I've seen this in tangs before, but usually just a few spots, and they tend to look cone shaped. That would account for no spots on the fins though (that's why I asked about that) as the mucus producing cells aren't present there.

Still, every time I look at the video it shouts "Cryptocaryon"~!

Anyone else have an idea?

Jay

when I look closely at the bits of white “whatever” hanging off of the body, they do look a bit like “shark teeth” so could be conical. Most are blown by water flow, so it’s hard to tell. I ever so slightly upped the copper level just in case, to 2.25ppm. I’ll keep an eye on it and see if there’s any progression or if it resolves as spontaneously as it began.

 

[cshouston]

Ohhh Noooo! So the picture is post FW dip? Is there any chance that you missed the development of spots over the past few days? I cannot account for spots like this showing up in just a day. Do you see ANY spots on the fins? That is one thing that has me wondering - everything seems to point to a moderately severe case of Cryptocaryon except for two things: the rapid onset and what appears to be a complete lack of spots on the fish's fins.

The respiration rate is a bit elevated. Not enough to push me into thinking this is velvet, but close. Can you let the fish settle down and take another measurement?

I don't suppose you have access to a microscope? A skin biopsy would tell all.

My differential diagnosis is, at this point: Cryptocaryon vs. excess mucus production vs Amyloodinium (velvet) vs. something else (grin).

I know the underlying question is; in Copper Power, how could it be a protozoal infection? I can't answer that, except perhaps the copper test you are using isn't accurate. Copper Power can be ramped up to 2.5 can't it?

Jay

Hey, @Jay Hemdal what kind of microscope would you recommend having on hand for aquarium purposes? Would a basic compound microscope suffice? I have plenty of experience using them from many biology courses at university. Thinking something like this:



Edit: not sure what’s up with linking to Amazon, but it doesn’t seem to be working. It’s a “AmScope Optical Glass Lens All-Metal LED Compound Microscope, 6 Settings 40x-1000x”

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I bought an Amscope dissecting scope instead...better at visualizing protozoans and metazoans:



But for $8 you can see a lot with one of these:



Jay

 

[cshouston]

I bought an Amscope dissecting scope instead...better at visualizing protozoans and metazoans:



But for $8 you can see a lot with one of these:



Jay

I bought an Amscope dissecting scope instead...better at visualizing protozoans and metazoans:



But for $8 you can see a lot with one of these:



Jay

Thanks. I picked up the $8 one because, hey, why not? I’ll see about grabbing the dissecting scope eventually.

It’ll be here tomorrow. If the tang hasn’t improved, how would you suggest obtaining a sample? My thought would be to gently restrain the fish in a container of saltwater and try to scrape some of the white matter off with a pair of tweezers.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes - I do a quick skin scrape, just try to get some of the white material. Put it on a smooth surface, (dark is best) with a drop of tank water and turn the light on the phone microscope. If all you see is white slime, it is mucus. Look for anything moving, or anything with inclusions (a round thing with smaller dots inside). You should also be able to post the pics here. I just used my $8 scope today to read the numbers on a watch battery (grin).

Jay

 

[cshouston]

Yes - I do a quick skin scrape, just try to get some of the white material. Put it on a smooth surface, (dark is best) with a drop of tank water and turn the light on the phone microscope. If all you see is white slime, it is mucus. Look for anything moving, or anything with inclusions (a round thing with smaller dots inside). You should also be able to post the pics here. I just used my $8 scope today to read the numbers on a watch battery (grin).

Jay

Well, this is really strange. As quickly as all of that appeared yesterday, it’s gone as of this morning. The purple tang looked perfectly normal when I went to feed everyone this morning. Bizarre! It makes me think it was the slime coat, but I have no idea what prompted it.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Parasites can cause slime coat separation but also high salinity, ph and hardness can do the same
What test kit(s) are you using ?

 

[cshouston]

Milwaukee digital refractometer and Red Sea test kits on the QT tanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well, this is really strange. As quickly as all of that appeared yesterday, it’s gone as of this morning. The purple tang looked perfectly normal when I went to feed everyone this morning. Bizarre! It makes me think it was the slime coat, but I have no idea what prompted it.

Strange, but perhaps good news. Don’t forget though; when Cryptocaryon first gets started, the life cycle is in sync, and the spots can come and go in unison...until they finally get out of sync and the fish has spots all the time. That said , this usually happens when there are fewer spots. Re: the mucus angle, like I said, those are more often cone shaped. Still, fingers crossed that is it!
Jay

 

[cshouston]

The copper treatment concludes on Friday, and it will remain in observation for another 3-4 weeks as it’s the last fish going in after the DT fallow period ends. I’ll keep an eye on things, but I’d be amazed if it were protozoan given the length of time it has been in copper sulfate. I’ll update the thread if anything changes.

 

[brwaldbaum]

The copper treatment concludes on Friday, and it will remain in observation for another 3-4 weeks as it’s the last fish going in after the DT fallow period ends. I’ll keep an eye on things, but I’d be amazed if it were protozoan given the length of time it has been in copper sulfate. I’ll update the thread if anything changes.

Is it this?

 

[cshouston]

Quite possible. It cleared up in a day, and hasn’t returned. The tang has looked fine ever since.