Putting Pond Matrix to the test now that Marinepure is out!

[cFloor]

Wow, thank you for the reply and input. Beautiful tank by the way. 34liters! Wow! I will have 28 in my system when this experiment is done.

Do you dose a carbon source?

Did you seed the rocks with bacteria?

How long was it until you noticed results?

Some people claim the detritus buildup is the downfall of these other medias vs marinepure. I run filter socks and have not seen a detritus buildup. I think if I ever have an issue I will just suck it out using a gravel vacuum when I clean my sump or just remove the media and clean the sump. I have also read a lot of success with people dosing Bio-Mate to remove excess detritus.

What's your opinion on this experiment? What would you do differently?

Using Matrix is still new to me so I am learning as I go, but as I mentioned I'm very happy with it.

I do not dose any carbon.
The rock used in both my last tank and my current tank has been with me for about 9 years so I did not need to seed it.
I think I first started to notice results about 2-3 months after beginning to use Matrix. I do believe running filter socks is good to keep the detritus out of it . A low flow reactor, in my opinion, is the ideal application for Matrix but media bags or baskets work very well also. I am using both. If I could do anything different, I'd probably just have all my matrix in one huge reactor but I kind of just pieced everything together. I'll get a pic up of my setup when I get home. I do feed my tank very heavy and I rely on both my oversized skimmer and matrix to keep everything in check.

 

[Roggio]

So it's been 24 hours and the water is visibly more clear. Prior to adding the rocks the substrate had not been disturbed.

I went ahead and tested the levels because the water was looking so clear and we're still looking at the same values.

 

[Balz3352]

There is a big long post on this forum about marine pure and the release of Al. it is pretty much confirmed that it is leached into the systems. What is not known is what kind of AL and what effects if any are caused. The only negatives noted that I can remember reading the post is some slightly less polyp extension on leathers only. No other types of coral have been reported to be effected FWIW. Just food for thought.

I personally run 2 big blocks and 2 smaller blocks on my 215 and have seen no effects on any of my corals (sps, lps, zoas, nems.)

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Bio media in DIY chambers. 30ppm NO3 in 75G to zero in 8 days. Has been working for more than a year. No nutrient issue since running this reactor and it take care PO4 as well.

 

[Roggio]

@Donovan Joannes Please tell us more about your set up. GPH, media used, and two weeks! You saw a drop that fast without seeding or additives?

I saw 80+ NO3 drop to 5 within a month on my new system by combining; carbon, bacteria, and bio media.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

@Donovan Joannes Please tell us more about your set up. GPH, media used, and two weeks! You saw a drop that fast without seeding or additives?

I saw 80+ NO3 drop to 5 within a month on my new system by combining; carbon, bacteria, and bio media.

I have a thread on this under DIY section. Have a look and hopefully you understand my explanation about my nitrate destroyer. Feel free to ask if you have any question.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/poor-man-nutrients-control-donovans-nitrate-destroyer.302685/

 

[GoVols]

After 8 weeks my nitrates went up in the water column.
Somebody should have put in the result box. "Did your nitrates test higher"

This is my experience with "Seachem Matrix" bio- media.
I control my nitrates and phos. with a reasonable fish bio-load.
GFO - reactor
Purigen - reactor that works with my skimmer to capture organics before they hit the nitrogen cycle.
Purigen does nothing for nitrates that are already in the water column.
And 18% weekly water changes.
Also, I loath carbon dosing.

So, I wanted to test Seacheam's Matrix and double check that the Purigen reactor was playing a factor.
So I filled the 22" tall Purigen reactor to the hilt with Seachem Matrix. Ran it at 20 gallons per hour for 8 weeks.
It could not produce the bacteria that gases off nitrates inside the media so it was spewing nitrates back in the water column.
Just like Randy's point #5. (Read what he says very closely)
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry

Bottom line it increased the nitrates that were floating in my water column and not being gassed off.

So, I yanked the Matrix bio-media. Put back the Purigen inside the reactor and let the live rock take care of the rest and it showed that the Purigen reactor was playing a good roll as one piece to my reefs puzzle.

We had a very long and good thread on Randy's forum at the first of the year. The only one poster that was gassing off nitrates with man media was also dosing bacteria too.

Gave it a shot and I just could not get the Matrix to pull it off. Nothing lost but just wanted to see if I could pull it off.

It's one thing for a company to say "It could" (to) "It Will". Where are any of these companies data that show hard facts with their results and instructions showing us how to set it up to guaranty that your your nitrates will drop with out the continual dosing of bacteria's?

I just do not feel that anything is better than letting your live rock do it's job.

Regards, GoVols

 

[Donovan Joannes]

GoVols,

Have your tried bacteria seeding on the Matrix whilst in the reactor?. I have built almost 20 units of my denitrator and they all works within a week or two, one special case it start working (reducing nitrate) in 3 days after being put online. They all are seeded with MB7, but my original reactor was seeded with FM100 (chinese or taiwanese product) and I can see nitrogen gas being released on week two.

 

[GoVols]

GoVols,

Have your tried bacteria seeding on the Matrix whilst in the reactor?. I have built almost 20 units of my denitrator and they all works within a week or two, one special case it start working (reducing nitrate) in 3 days after being put online. They all are seeded with MB7, but my original reactor was seeded with FM100 (chinese or taiwanese product) and I can see nitrogen gas being released on week two.

I did seed (soak) the media for 24 hours with MB7 before I charged the 22" tall reactor with the Matrix.

I can only post my findings but I cannot say that it will not or does not work for others.

My personal goal was to be able to run a (ULNS) and to stop carbon dosing of any kind. The goal was met and I'm a happy reefer.

Thanks, GoVols

 

[Donovan Joannes]

I did seed (soak) the media for 24 hours with MB7 before I charged the 22" tall reactor with the Matrix.

I can only post my findings but I cannot say that it will not or does not work for others.

My personal goal was to be able to run a (ULNS) and to stop carbon dosing of any kind. The goal was met and I'm a happy reefer.

Thanks, GoVols

In my case, MB7 dosing (5ml daily) for the first 5 days is more than adequate to seed the reactor. Snotty slime will ooze out from my reactor indicates bacteria seeding is a success. I have been able to keep low NO3 (less than 5ppm) with single 5ml VSV dosing daily for the last 14 months without reseeding. Occasionally I will crank up carbon dosing for few days (2 or 3 times per day @ 5ml VSV) to stimulate the reactor and every time I do this i will end up with zero NO3.

 

[GoVols]

In my case, MB7 dosing (5ml daily) for the first 5 days is more than adequate to seed the reactor. Snotty slime will ooze out from my reactor indicates bacteria seeding is a success. I have been able to keep low NO3 (less than 5ppm) with single 5ml VSV dosing daily for the last 14 months without reseeding. Occasionally I will crank up carbon dosing for few days (2 or 3 times per day @ 5ml VSV) to stimulate the reactor and every time I do this i will end up with zero NO3.

Not arguing but I stay steady at 4ppm and not dosing anything. (Use Salifert nitrate kit)
Been this way since late last summer with the Purigen reactor and just my live rock.
When I took out the Purigen and put in the Matrix my water column's nitrates were above 20ppm in 8 weeks.

If you have watched the BRS video, after 14 weeks all their tanks are at 50ppm with the Marine Pure blocks and (lol) the tank that has no bio-media in it at all, is at 50ppm too. So they are going to try to test the Marine Pure blocks using different test methods??????????
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Worries..
We all find our way and many ways to skin a cat.

Regards, GoVols

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Not arguing but I stay steady at 4ppm and not dosing anything. (Use Salifert nitrate kit)
Been this way since late last summer with the Purigen reactor and just my live rock.
When I took out the Purigen and put in the Matrix my water column's nitrates were above 20ppm in 8 weeks.

If you have watched the BRS video, after 14 weeks all their tanks are at 50ppm with the Marine Pure blocks and (lol) the tank that has no bio-media in it at all, is at 50ppm too. So they are going to try to test the Marine Pure blocks using different test methods??????????
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Worries..
We all find our way and many ways to skin a cat.

Regards, GoVols

High possibility your live rock works wonders. I have tons of LR in my DT as well. I used purigen before but my wallet doesn't agree with me at all. Now I am more than happy as the bacteria does the job for free. Maybe not totally free, 5ml of VSV daily is just a small amount to pay I think. It only cost me less than USD10 per year to run the denitrator.

 

[GoVols]

High possibility your live rock works wonders. I have tons of LR in my DT as well. I used purigen before but my wallet doesn't agree with me at all. Now I am more than happy as the bacteria does the job for free. Maybe not totally free, 5ml of VSV daily is just a small amount to pay I think. It only cost me less than USD10 per year to run the denitrator.

Yes,
I does cost myself $25 to recharge my Purigen reactor every six weeks but the Purigen reactor is only one piece of a bigger puzzle.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Yes,
I does cost myself $25 to recharge my Purigen reactor every six weeks but the Purigen reactor is only one piece of a bigger puzzle.

Purigen was quickly exhausted in my tank before. Turned brown in a week or two, if only I have the guts to recharge

 

[GoVols]

Purigen was quickly exhausted in my tank before. Turned brown in a week or two, if only I have the guts to recharge

When I recharge the color has barely changed but I still recharge every six so the Purigen does not turn into bacteria bio media.
This thread is about Matrix and I posted my results as I saw them.
If you read my post and Randy's point #5 in his article. That was the conclusion that I came to.
Reefers can take it or leave it but it was my results.
Here's BRS's Video with the Marine Pure man made blocks (Round 1)

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Personally I believe any bio media including Matrix will perform better if not best inside a reactor. Water flow, introduction of bacteria food (carbon) and absent of oxygen are the main ingredient for a successful and complete nitrogen cycle.

 

[Roggio]

@GoVols I don't agree with your method of testing the Matrix. There's a reason BRS ended that test and decided to go a different route. There's a lot of unknowns. How long were these blocks seeded? Denitrifying bacteria takes time. The Marinepure is only acting as a surface area for the bacteria.

When you removed the Purigen (an extremely porous material that works like GAC) you likely removed a lot of your bacteria. The bacteria population goes up and down with the nutrients available. I would assume a lot of your denitrifying bacteria would be on the extremely porous media inside a reactor. Seachem has a product called Denitrate thats essentially small Matrix. You run this media inside a reactor with a very low flow. This goes with @Donovan Joannes theory.

One of the things I have noticed while testing the matrix is no matter how much I shake it tons of mico-bubbles are released. I soaked it in RODI water for 24 hours and cleaned them really well. Even after that I shake the media bags daily and I'm still getting bubbles. It's been a few days now and many of the rocks are still floating. This could be a variable on the time it takes to form the denitrifying bacteria necessary depending on what theory you believe.

If you have a large system it would take several large water changes to lower the nitrates. This method can get really expensive and time consuming even with cheap salts. If you're buying Purigen every six weeks why not set up a dosing system with a source of carbon? or biopellets? Some methods just don't seem financially worthwhile on a large system. Are you leaving some of the media in the reactor to seed the new media when you change it?

@Donovan Joannes controlling the flow might be key. I'm hoping to have an almost DSB affect with so many rocks in a media bag although Seachem claims the flow doesn't matter.

Have you tried a single source of carbon? I haven't seen any evidence VSV works any better than a single source. I use vodka because I'm able to dose a lot less and it doesn't impact my PH the way vinegar does.

 

[GoVols]

@GoVols I don't agree with your method of testing the Matrix. There's a reason BRS ended that test and decided to go a different route. There's a lot of unknowns. How long were these blocks seeded? Denitrifying bacteria takes time. The Marinepure is only acting as a surface area for the bacteria.

When you removed the Purigen (an extremely porous material that works like GAC) you likely removed a lot of your bacteria. The bacteria population goes up and down with the nutrients available. I would assume a lot of your denitrifying bacteria would be on the extremely porous media inside a reactor. Seachem has a product called Denitrate thats essentially small Matrix. You run this media inside a reactor with a very low flow. This goes with @Donovan Joannes theory.

One of the things I have noticed while testing the matrix is no matter how much I shake it tons of mico-bubbles are released. I soaked it in RODI water for 24 hours and cleaned them really well. Even after that I shake the media bags daily and I'm still getting bubbles. It's been a few days now and many of the rocks are still floating. This could be a variable on the time it takes to form the denitrifying bacteria necessary depending on what theory you believe.

If you have a large system it would take several large water changes to lower the nitrates. This method can get really expensive and time consuming even with cheap salts. If you're buying Purigen every six weeks why not set up a dosing system with a source of carbon? or biopellets? Some methods just don't seem financially worthwhile on a large system. Are you leaving some of the media in the reactor to seed the new media when you change it?

@Donovan Joannes controlling the flow might be key. I'm hoping to have an almost DSB affect with so many rocks in a media bag although Seachem claims the flow doesn't matter.

Have you tried a single source of carbon? I haven't seen any evidence VSV works any better than a single source. I use vodka because I'm able to dose a lot less and it doesn't impact my PH the way vinegar does.

No Worries.

If you read my first post "in detail" all your above is mentioned.

Regards, GoVols

 

[Donovan Joannes]

@Blatzphemy, some of my denitrate user are solely on vodka with great result. VSV dosing directly in the reactor doesn't affect PH based on my test, at 5ml it shouldn't have any impact even if it is naturally. If I remember correctly, different bacteria strain uses different carbon source to process nutrients including PO4. I read this somewhere on the internet.

 

[bif24701]

its not the same thing..

Not the same how? It is the same