Putting the most popular PAR meters to the test | BRStv Investigates

[readallen]

Im assuming the sq-520 apogee will be impacted as well?

 

[Thor2j]

Im assuming the sq-520 apogee will be impacted as well?

Yes, same sensor

 

[Terence]

This really is an incredible discovery by BRS. Bravo!

I am also happy that BRS commented more than once on the value of getting PAR data across the day. Of course I use the PMK and when I make any change to the light schedule on my tank (spectrum, sun up/down ramps, spectrum, etc.), I do it, wait a day, and then see how the average PAR for a full 24 hours compares. That is the true amount of aggregate light intensity at that spot. Not just a measurement for one setting at that spot. I do not think many with LED simply turn them on and then turn them off like a MH.

Also, the comment that relative values are probably the most important is spot on. A few percentage points this way or that is not going to make a big difference. 20-30%, sure, 3-5% probably not a lot.

One last note the Apogee sensor and the sensor in the PMK are not identical. The sensor itself is, but the construction the outer shell is completely different as the stock Apogee sensor is metal and the anodized coating on it will eventually wear off in saltwater - dispersing into your tank and exposing the bare metal. The PMK version of the sensor was built custom to our specifications and is not made out of metal so it is capable of long term submersion in saltwater.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Yes I know there is no Mac software but if you have the SWS you can use a Mac

So you can use the Seneye on a mac aslong as you have SWS? What is this SWS and more importantly is it free

 

[jason2459]

So you can use the Seneye on a mac aslong as you have SWS? What is this SWS and more importantly is it free

The SWS is a stand alone webserver the seneye usb device connects too. You then use a web browser to connect to it locally. It then reports up to seneye.me cloud service just like the PC would. If you use a phone to connect to it I found firefox works. I found so far Chrome doesn't work so well on PC and not at all on my phone. I'll be writing up a review of the SWS vs PC connection and experience soon.

 

[DLHDesign]

So you can use the Seneye on a mac aslong as you have SWS?

You can use the Seneye on a Mac even without the SWS ("Seneye Web Server"); which, no - sadly is not free. There ARE several ways to get the Seneye software to run on a Mac - all of them involve setting up some kind of virtual PC environment. These can run anywhere from "free" (with limitations and often more difficult to set up and use) through to something you'll pay for. I happen to have one option called Parallels - which is one that you have to pay for (I use it for work). I can confirm that the Seneye software worked as expected via the version of Parallels I have.
I've also used a free virtual emulator called Wine with good success with other Windows apps. I've not tried it with the Seneye software, but have used it with other peripherals (USB devices) and with software that's much more demanding than anything Seneye's stuff does, so I would imagine that would work as well.

Note that even after the above, I still got the SWS. I did this because with the SWS in place, you can set up mobile alerts and/or email notifications from the Seneye device - such as "out of water", "low pH", etc. You may be able to get this by having it plugged into a PC all the time, but I'm not sure - I knew I didn't have a PC for it to plug into anyways, so never looked into it...

 

[Ryanbrs]

The Seneye can be a pain to use especially connecting it to a PC. But I like that it monitors PH and ammonia so I use it on my quarantine tank and extra security when I leave the tank alone for a few days.

I agree it requires more work to set up and use and can be a pain if you use it infrequently, particularly if you don't own a laptop. However, the price point is hard to ignore. If you are going to use it just a few times a year, it might be worth the effort. I think where it transitions into a real value is for those who want to invest in a monitor but not the complexity of a controller, which to be frank is likely not a large section of the reef2reef community : )

 

[jason2459]

If I had to choose between getting an Apex (or any full controller) and the Seneye my choice would be the Apex no question.

If I was in the market for a light meter my choice would hands down be the Seneye. It's highly capable, add in spectral analysis, LUX, and PUR gives it more features as a light meter then even the Apogee alone. Then it also complements my Apex as a monitor/alert system with the addition of Ammonia that the Apex doesn't do and a second check for other parameters like pH, temp, out of water. The Seneye also calculates Ammonium and Disolved O2. And that's with out considering cost.

If I was in the market for a light meter that I could take with me anywhere, use on multiple tanks, fit in small areas, share with friends, and easily pack up to take to the beach or out on a boat it would be the Apogee MQ510. (Which I will be doing soon...yay)

 

[jason2459]

Then add in the 2016 Apex with the EB832 plus the Seneye and you and track over time if your Lights need replaced easily. Like I'm looking to see if my T5 bulb spectrum shifts effecting the PUR before the PAR does as the phosphors burn out. Many LEDs have phosphors too and over the years will burn through those before the LED goes out just like a T5. Keep those LEDs cool.

 

[ps2cho]

I own the SQ-120 and its the most inexpensive way, but its no frills!

 

[Terence]

If all you want is the PAR number, and you are really into doing things on a budget, you could buy the apogee sensor on its own, a $5 multimeter from harbor freight, and do the math. You can get the sensor on its own for about $150.

I personally want to be able to integrate it into my Apex, log the info (I can compare it to many things going on in the tank), use it for alarms (like when I accidentally leave my lights on or off) and so I can compare full 24-hour average light values. Oh, and with the PMK you also get another temp probe input as well as six more switch inputs.

Amongst all of these there is a choice for someone. Just wanted to tell you about the DIY apogee option.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Terence, your assessment of checking the Par meters in the reef through out the day is spot on. And for someone who has had timer fail and have the lights on for few days I can say this is also good to know... If we look at the natural reef corals PAR reading are changing through out the day and seasons and knowing what the average par throughout the day is valuable in providing ideal light output in an extended period of time.. I have radions so the ability to tweak the intensity to match ideal parameters may save alot of coral frags

 

[Ashish Patel]

Researching neptune's PAR meter, to me it seemed its marketed for finding Par readings through out the day. However I can not image it not being used like all the other products (testing as needed or for coral placement). For example, when I add 10 frags to my tank I just want to make sure they are getting the correct par before doing daily readings. Id like to get a take on how someone uses their Apex Par meter. Also, I plan on getting an apex controller but would their Par meter alone work on a computer?

 

[jason2459]

Terrance any chance you can say if the PMK will get it's sensor upgraded to the newer model to read the deeper blues especially with leds better?

With T5s it seems to do ok as it over compensates with the other mid-spectrum colors. But LEDs don't do that like MH or T5s.

 

[Terence]

Realistically, no, we don't plan on having a model with that sensor because it is just too pricey for the average reef keeper. Combine that with the fact that in relative comparisons on the same lights, it is absolutely still valid and will work just fine.

That said, a little known fact is that the PMK has both the sensor and a module to make it work. That module is called the ASM. The ASM can take inputs from a myriad of lab and industrial sensors since it can accept 0-1v, 0-5v, and with an inexpensive adapter 4-20ma. This means advanced Apex users could conceivably buy the ASM and then buy the newer 510 sensor on its own, adapt the cable, and they would have a solution for less than the standalone version of the Apogee meter itself.

 

[jason2459]

Ok now that's cool. Didn't know that. Now how about that Alkalinity monitor and Cor? lol. I want more.

 

[Ryanbrs]

Terrance any chance you can say if the PMK will get it's sensor upgraded to the newer model to read the deeper blues especially with leds better?

With T5s it seems to do ok as it over compensates with the other mid-spectrum colors. But LEDs don't do that like MH or T5s.

I think is pretty easy to identify significant issues with a single LED but overall once you blend them all together like you would for a majority of the day on a typical reef tank you are going to find the inaccuracies balance out with LED's fairly well. The lighter blue, green and red all overreported which balances out the violet and deep blue which is under reported. In fact, the MQ-510 may very well end up with the opposite effect and read high once the deepest blue is read accurately but a larger portion of the rest overreported. Maybe it is best that they under report blue if they are going to overreport the rest? Once you start down a path of realistically looking at every light source, manufacture, spectrum, bin of LED's and how they are incorporated on a specific light module it becomes fairly obvious complete accuracy is a fairytale.

In the end, I think I think we can end up just chasing our own tails looking for some type of mythical perfect accuracy and lose sight of the real goal which is just to get into the ballpark and all these tools are getting is within 5-10% with a complete spectrum used to light most reef tanks. Even if you could get exactly 110 par in that exact inch where you wanted it, will it really produce different results than 105 or 115 and will the coral 2 inches to the left with 130 PAR somehow suffer? The goal is really just to get away from using our eye where is almost impossible to tell the difference between 150 and 300 because what the eye perceives as brightness has so very little to do with PAR.

Once you really examine where a fuller spectrum typical to a reef tank would fall on this chart it's hard to not acknowledge this is never going to be a perfect science and paying more for a higher quality sensor might just create different issues or such subtle improves it doesn't have a real impact on the tank unless you are doing analytical research for aquaculture facility or university : )

 

[jason2459]

Or there's some that have very little to no red, green, or white quite a bit of the day. And some places working with testing out very long periods of just blues.

And I'm not looking for any mythical number or ratio. I look at this as being able to test individual channels and see degradation over time or matching against other fixtures and channels. Leds are vary narrow in their spectrum.

And certainly I don't expect 100%, or anywhere near it, accuracy. But all very good points and something everyone has to decide on which makes it all the more confusing. or not and just through up some MH and LED supplements and forget about it. lol

 

[jason2459]

Ok, now I'm going to have to get a PMK... ha!

Edit: Done.. PAR shootout v2 coming up

 

[jason2459]

And to add this wouldn't be the first time I've said I was wrong and sorry to Terence. I put my nose up to the EB836 design with the internal DC power supply and at the pmup. I absolutely love both of them now.

http://forum.neptunesystems.com/showthread.php?t=18000