Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

For or against QT


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flyfisher2

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If you have a stable mature tank, and healthy happy well fed fish, I think the likelyhood of them being overwhelmed by a pathogen is quite unlikely.

The problem is immature systems, like my current recent build do not have the maturity or stability to keep the fish in 100% condition, thus my recent unfortunate death of a beautiful blue tang.

The only solution is time and slowly adding new stuff to the tank. I don't think bottled bac products really help much past cycling a tank.

I'm not yet convinced that quarantining fish will help. You need to increase diversity, not kill it off by sterilising everything.

Before somone points out that I recently poemise?ted that I'm going to QT everything, yes I changed my mind. It's pointless and counterproductive. I will still QT some high risk fish, but I'm not going to 72 days fallow as I have more than one tank

Regards
Graham.
Would you say the Coral Reefs are part of a balanced system? If so then what is causing their demise?
I don't believe there are guarantees in this hobby and the more we can do to bring the odds in our favor the better it will be for our livestock and wallets.
 
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N.Sreefer

N.Sreefer

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Would you say the Coral Reefs are part of a balanced system? If so then what is causing their demise?
I don't believe there are guarantees in this hobby and the more we can do to bring the odds in our favor the better it will be for our livestock and wallets.
I think people forget reef building coral records go back to the triassic they've survived major extinction events before. At one point the ocean cooled 6 degrees and light was blocked by ash clouds.


I think the ironic part is coral are much better prepared to survive the Anthropocene extinction than us.
 

gbroadbridge

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Would you say the Coral Reefs are part of a balanced system? If so then what is causing their demise?
I don't believe there are guarantees in this hobby and the more we can do to bring the odds in our favor the better it will be for our livestock and wallets.
Well as the great barrier reef is closer to me than you are :) it is pretty obvious that they are being killled by excess runoff of fertiliser used to grow bananas, as well as extreme temperatures over the last few years due to climate change.

Seriously, pollution and excess temps are killing natural reefs.

Look what happened when Thailand shut their reefs to tourism. Their reefs bounced back due to lack of pollution.

Regards
Graham.
 

Jubei2006

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I do believe and agree that a healthy mature system benefits the existing fish but if a foreign pathogen is introduced via a new fish or contamination then all bets are off.
if your present fish can fight off diseases in your closed system that to me is a balanced system and should work well until it becomes unbalanced and that can be a result of something as simple as a power outage or addition of a diseased specimen which will stress the system enough to have some disease pop up.
It seems to be that the variables outweigh the the likelihood of success and make the argument for quarantine all the more compelling.
Hence the reason everything in my tank is and will be quarantined first. Including the new live rock and am planning on purchasing. It will undergo at least 72 days by itself with circulation, lights, and a heater.
 

HuduVudu

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Well 2 days later it developed velvet and died, also taking my maroon clown and the watchman goby with it.
I'm sorry it really is sad to lose fish especially long term ones. :(
I still believe in microfauna helping with maintaining a healthy tank.
If you aren't using live rock, what is your plan to provide the micro fauna?
 

HuduVudu

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Throw away the API! Pure garbage.
ROFL API has been pure garbage in tests for a very very long time. :)
The other really bad API test that gets people is the Nitrate test. I can not tell you how many of many many years have complained about these tests. The part that makes me shake my head is that they are still around. I guess the price is attractive.
 

HuduVudu

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Before somone points out that I recently posted that I'm going to QT everything, yes I changed my mind.
Graham, could you follow up with this. Don't just leave us hanging. :p

What caused you to change your mind? Was it something said here, or did something else do it?
It's pointless and counterproductive.
Why have you come to this conclusion?
I will still QT some high risk fish, but I'm not going to 72 days fallow as I have more than one tank
Roughly speaking what is your threshold for high risk? How would you determine that?
 
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HuduVudu

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Seriously, pollution and excess temps are killing natural reefs.
I would lean more toward pollution.

I think that the pollution exacerbates the effects of temp swings.

BTW I didn't know about the run off issue. It is amazing how ignorant we really are of the thing around us. I would have no idea that there were plantations that were causing this problem.

I was in the Philippines and Manila Bay is real.
 

HuduVudu

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I have gotten multiple undesirable pest over the years with aiptasia being one Im still dealing with in my nano.
Hence the reason everything in my tank is and will be quarantined first. Including the new live rock and am planning on purchasing. It will undergo at least 72 days by itself with circulation, lights, and a heater.
I don't even guess I just assume all of my live rock has majano or aptasia. I spend the first 2 weeks to month looking for it. I have found that Aptasia X works really well to deal with the aptasia. You just have to be diligent. For me it usually isn't an issue to find the aptasia because even to this day I love looking in all of the cracks and crevices for kewl stuff thata comes in on my rock.
 

Jubei2006

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I'm sorry it really is sad to lose fish especially long term ones. :(

If you aren't using live rock, what is your plan to provide the micro fauna?
My oldest son is still sad about it after 3 years and still talks about them when we see them at a store or on tv. Also taught me a little more about patience, and a reminder about asymptomatic carriers. Solidifying my stance on quarantining everything when talking about the financial investment and emotional attachment of animals in my care. As I stated before, I am planning on using live rock, just that it is quarantined, lighted, circulated, and heated for at least 3 to 4 months before introduction. Unwanted pest will be removed, destructive crabs, shrimp, worms, and aiptasia/majanos. I use F-aiptasia (joes juice and aiptasia x have failed me in the past). In addition, I do have 20 lbs of fiji rock in my 29g that may be moved over. It has uncounted numbers of generations of bristleworms (havent found them to be a pest in the 2 decades of saltwater Ive been around), amphipods and copepods, asterina starfish (havent done any damage to any of the corals Ive kept in the tank), and even some random algaes (halimadea pops up from time to time as well as neomersis). It has bubble algae (but will probably remove it over time) which has never been a big problem either. I view all these algae as beneficial and adds diversity and some measure of beauty as long as kept in check. The only algaes Ive ever had issues with is hair algae (obviously) and caleurpa which got ot of control for awhile in my 125 display back in the mid 2000s.
 

Jubei2006

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@Jubei2006 are you aware that you can get biodiversity from places like Indo Pacific Sea Farms https://ipsf.com/

This might be a good option for you.
Looks great for my smaller tank and or to help out with quarantine live rock tank and such. Thanks for sharing! May be a little cost prohibitive on my 525 at the stocking density I'd need for some of the fauna.
 

gbroadbridge

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Graham, could you follow up with this. Don't just leave us hanging. :p

What caused you to change your mind? Was it something said here, or did something else do it?

Why have you come to this conclusion?

Roughly speaking what is your threshold for high risk? How would you determine that?
Basically, it is a combination of what I've read here, plus I went back and re-read the book written by Paul B.

I hadn't read it for a while as I purchased it before I set up my current reef.

I wish I'd read it a month ago when Dory got ich, because I may have managed to save him. Whats done is done.

And I suppose the other reason, is that with two tanks, I spend my life sterilising myself when moving from tank to tank, and it just seems best to let the tanks eventually become one happy family

Graham
 

Spare time

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I think people forget reef building coral records go back to the triassic they've survived major extinction events before. At one point the ocean cooled 6 degrees and light was blocked by ash clouds.


I think the ironic part is coral are much better prepared to survive the Anthropocene extinction than us.

2 things.


1. Previous climatic changes were no where near the speed that they are at currently.



2. They are not going to survive the anthropocene on the current track
 

Lowell Lemon

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We have a mangrove exhibit, and I acquired various Fundulus for it from Gulf Specimen Co. I've had a lot of issues with them slowly dying, some never getting out of quarantine (I always wait 45 days past the last unknown fish loss in a quarantine tank before moving anything out).

Some of the issues I've seen were brackish water gill flukes that I could not control (but didn't seem contagious to reef fish). Some issue though, I attributed to some weird disease - possibly a virus? The fish would act all "shocky" and then die. I've stopped acquiring them due to these issues.....

Jay
Jay, I just have to ask the question of how much turn over of livestock does your aquarium have? It seems that you always have fish in quarantine to add to displays otherwise you would be out of a job pretty soon. I would think that this would tend to bias your opinion on the success of others that do not have the constant turn over rate that many public aquariums seem to have. I am sure the scale of a facility has an impact on thinking about husbandry practices that most scale down from your perspective. Just curious since my experience is limited to various independent systems in offices and homes so turn over and disease was very little once the biome of the tank was established.

I did use quarantine via holding systems with biological, mechanical, skimmimg with ozone, and U.V. I held in the system for 30 plus days feeding and observing before moving the fish onto the various displays. I had very little success with prophylaxis with higher loss rates. Again much smaller scale but it was the only way I could manage things. I did have access to expert help via Washington State University's Vetranary Science division for diagnosis and treatment recommendations.
 
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N.Sreefer

N.Sreefer

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2 things.


1. Previous climatic changes were no where near the speed that they are at currently.



2. They are not going to survive the anthropocene on the current track
Fossil records disagree the current theory on the end permian mass extinction is a large number of volcano eruptions in what is now siberia causing a mass outpouring of lava that quickly warmed the oceans, much faster than current trends. End triassic was likely slower but it was mass acidification and warming very similar to whats happening today.

I disagree but nobody knows for sure. There's some evidence that they will do exactly what they did after every other extinction event. Explode in diversity and population, the graph I attached shows estimated marine extinctions for different time periods. Every extinction event being followed by a recovery.





The blue graph shows the apparent percentage (not the absolute number) of marine animal genera becoming extinct during any given time interval. It does not represent all marine species, just those that are readily fossilized.

% 640px-Extinction_intensity.svg.png
Millions of years
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Jay I just have to ask the question of how much turn over of livestock does your aquarium have? It seems that you always have fish in quarantine to add to displays otherwise you would be out of a job pretty soon. I would think that this would tend to bias your opinion on the success of others that do not have the constant turn over rate that many public aquariums seem to have. I am sure the scale of a facility has an impact on thinking about husbandry practices that most scale down from your perspective. Just curious since my experience is limited to various independent systems in offices and homes so turn over and disease was very little once the biomedical of the tank was established.

I did use quarantine via holding systems with biological, mechanical, skimmimg with ozone, and U.V. I held in the system for 30 plus days feeding and observing before moving the fish onto the various displays. I had very little success with prophylaxis with higher loss rates. Again much smaller scale but it was the only I could manage things. I did have access to expert help via Washington State University's Vetranary Science division for diagnosis and treatment recommendations.
Hi, I’m not sure I quite understand your question. I’ve evaluated our longevity / mortality rate for about 30 years. It runs about 12 to 15% annually. Our reproduction rate varies, but offsets much of that. Since many smaller fish have natural lifespans of less than ten years, I think this is very low with old age factored in. We acquired almost no new fish in 2020 and 2021. With growth of existing fish, and cichlid, shark and ray reproduction, we actually had to surplus fish to other aquariums as many exhibits were getting crowded.
Jay
 

gbroadbridge

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Fossil records disagree the current theory on the end permian mass extinction is a large number of volcano eruptions in what is now siberia causing a mass outpouring of lava that quickly warmed the oceans, much faster than current trends. End triassic was likely slower but it was mass acidification and warming very similar to whats happening today.

I disagree but nobody knows for sure. There's some evidence that they will do exactly what they did after every other extinction event. Explode in diversity and population, the graph I attached shows estimated marine extinctions for different time periods. Every extinction event being followed by a recovery.





The blue graph shows the apparent percentage (not the absolute number) of marine animal genera becoming extinct during any given time interval. It does not represent all marine species, just those that are readily fossilized.

% 640px-Extinction_intensity.svg.png
Millions of years
How would you measure ocean pollution increase in the last 50 years and incorporate that into your model.

Just as with aircraft crashes, these things cascade. It is never a single point of failure that dooms things.

Regards
Graham.
 
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N.Sreefer

N.Sreefer

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How would you measure ocean pollution increase in the last 50 years and incorporate that into your model.

Just as with aircraft crashes, these things cascade. It is never a single point of failure that dooms things.

Regards
Graham.
I sidetracked the thread sharing my opinions on that. This has nothing to do with QT. Its not my model, I shared it because it illustrates how marine species rebound from mass extinction events. Just my opinion anyway we can agree to disagree, my bad for side tracking.
 

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