Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[gbroadbridge]

I sidetracked the thread sharing my opinions on that. This has nothing to do with QT. Its not my model, I shared it because it illustrates how marine species rebound from mass extinction events. Just my opinion anyway we can agree to disagree, my bad for side tracking.

Mine too. Easy to lose track.

Regards
Graham

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Hi, I’m not sure I quite understand your question. I’ve evaluated our longevity / mortality rate for about 30 years. It runs about 12 to 15% annually. Our reproduction rate varies, but offsets much of that. Since many smaller fish have natural lifespans of less than ten years, I think this is very low with old age factored in. We acquired almost no new fish in 2020 and 2021. With growth of existing fish, and cichlid, shark and ray reproduction, we actually had to surplus fish to other aquariums as many exhibits were getting crowded.
Jay

Jay, I think you caught the main question of turn over rates through mortality. The idea of bias is related to personal and professional experience. Your level of experience with processing more fish over more years leads to the success of your methods. I was never able to get the prophylaxis treatment to work for me or the stores I designed and built out for customers. It never worked out for me with the local maintenance customers I had for 20 plus years. So I have a bias geared towards what I could manage and pass on to my customers.

By the way I probably was one of the kids pressing my face up to the glass in the 70's at the Shedd Aquarium. It was my favorite place in Chicago. When did you start there?

 

[brandon429]

if you honestly had that history you’d have ten or so links start to finish of completed reefs you coached up in continuance


we can find that exact standard for pages here in the fish disease forum so don’t get all mad at the backstory challenge/ multiple tanks successfully keeping fish using methods from the stickies here exist and they set a high bar for claims about what works for the public.

in order to forward retention science in the marine fish trade, proponents of no prep need to be building live time examples- we need patterning that comes from clickable links not self reports

* most here agree the disease issue wasn’t as bad fifteen years ago and well before that…it’s why updated models are needed. We need new ways to deal with newer issues. What worked in the past isn’t working now when someone sets up a new reef.

 

[brandon429]

This is the only forum where that poll above would be staunchly in favor of today’s top science- quarantine observe and or medicate preemptively

post that poll in any other forum here, and the self reports for zero preps win out to the same degree qt wins above, there’s no misleading this group we can see.

 

[brandon429]

in the last four to five months it would have been easy for any no prep advocates to go into the new tanks forum and select a help post and begin public work with the brand new reef to guide them and document them on disease preps opposite of the stickies on this forum, and you can build up ten working live time models easily. We do this constantly for cycling issues, or to direct them here for quarantine setups etc, the only folks not taking part in the flow are non prep advocates, back stories and personal tank testimony are 100% of their stance.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, I think you caught the main question of turn over rates through mortality. The idea of bias is related to personal and professional experience. Your level of experience with processing more fish over more years leads to the success of your methods. I was never able to get the prophylaxis treatment to work for me or the stores I designed and built out for customers. It never worked out for me with the local maintenance customers I had for 20 plus years. So I have a bias geared towards what I could manage and pass on to my customers.

By the way I probably was one of the kids pressing my face up to the glass in the 70's at the Shedd Aquarium. It was my favorite place in Chicago. When did you start there?

I worked at the Shedd later - from 1985 until 1989. My first visit to the Shedd was in 1970, when I was 10. My parents dropped me off there and then they went to the Field Museum (not something people would do now days!). I remember walking up to the receptionist and asking if I could speak to the "boss". Bill Braker came out and I told him I wanted to work there....he just smiled and said, o.k., gave me some general advice and went back to his office.

Jay

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I worked at the Shedd later - from 1985 until 1989. My first visit to the Shedd was in 1970, when I was 10. My parents dropped me off there and then they went to the Field Museum (not something people would do now days!). I remember walking up to the receptionist and asking if I could speak to the "boss". Bill Braker came out and I told him I wanted to work there....he just smiled and said, o.k., gave me some general advice and went back to his office.

Jay

I would have been there a lot around 70-73. My dad would attend medical meetings and I would get one day with him during the week long meetings. I was given free reign to wander McCormick Place and he would tank me to the Shedd at least once during the week. I was about 10 in 1970 as well. The aquarium bug hit me at 5-6 when my dad brought home our first 10 gallon freshwater tank. Seems like I have had an aquarium running somewhere in my house ever since! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Paul B]

You people are so young.

 

[HuduVudu]

You people are so young.

Ok Boomer

 

[HuduVudu]

if you honestly had that history you’d have ten or so links start to finish of completed reefs you coached up in continuance

I am going to go ahead and hazard a guess that @Lowell Lemon who was pressing his face to the glass of the Shedd aquarium in the 70's has had most of experience outside the interenet age.

we can find that exact standard for pages here in the fish disease forum so don’t get all mad at the backstory challenge/ multiple tanks successfully keeping fish using methods from the stickies here exist and they set a high bar for claims about what works for the public.

Just because you say something or anyone else says something doesn't make it true. This is a knife that cuts both ways. You can't have it one way or another. You are very censorious. It just gets old.

in order to forward retention science in the marine fish trade, proponents of no prep need to be building live time examples- we need patterning that comes from clickable links not self reports

Nobody needs to be doing anything. You just say that and really nobody will listen because truth be told you have nothing to say. Maybe one day if you actually decide to join the hobby, somebody might listen to you. Until that day you are irrelavant.

* most here agree the disease issue wasn’t as bad fifteen years ago and well before that…it’s why updated models are needed. We need new ways to deal with newer issues. What worked in the past isn’t working now when someone sets up a new reef.

There you go again speaking for people. I actually had aquariums 15 years ago. I have also had aquariums 39 years ago. So the most you have speaking of would be people like me, and NO it wasn't better it was far far worse.

Here is something else for you to consider. The amount and variety of medications in the past was FAR greater than it is now.

This is the only forum where that poll above would be staunchly in favor of today’s top science- quarantine observe and or medicate preemptively

And so .... ???!???!??!!!

Everyone in the world can say that you are right this does not make you right. There is one and only standard for rightness or wrongness, that standard is reality. Clearly you are not close to that standard. You are part of the perception is reality crowd. That generally doesn't end well for people.

post that poll in any other forum here, and the self reports for zero preps win out to the same degree qt wins above, there’s no misleading this group we can see.

Yet here you are. Mr. MisInfo himself.

 

[HuduVudu]

@Lowell Lemon are Trev and Andy (Salt Water City) around?

 

[mfinn]

@Lowell Lemon are Trev and Andy (Salt Water City) around?

If you are referring to the place in Bellevue WA. Trev is, Andy isn't. ( at least at SWC)

 

[HuduVudu]

If you are referring to the place in Bellevue WA. Trev is, Andy isn't. ( at least at SWC)

Ohh good to know. That was were I got my first experience with LR and my first reef tank.

Trev was super helpful. I know that he and Andy struggled. Partnerships really are like marriages.

 

[mfinn]

Ohh good to know. That was were I got my first experience with LR and my first reef tank.

Trev was super helpful. I know that he and Andy struggled. Partnerships really are like marriages.

I met them at the first store around 1990. Trev and Andy's store was a place I could go to and get solid information, and healthy fish and corals, and is on my list of go to places in my area.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I worked at the Shedd later - from 1985 until 1989. My first visit to the Shedd was in 1970, when I was 10. My parents dropped me off there and then they went to the Field Museum (not something people would do now days!). I remember walking up to the receptionist and asking if I could speak to the "boss". Bill Braker came out and I told him I wanted to work there....he just smiled and said, o.k., gave me some general advice and went back to his office.

Jay

I would have been there a lot around 70-73. My dad would attend medical meetings and I would get one day with him during the week long meetings. I was given free reign to wander McCormick Place and he would tank me to the Shedd at least once during the week. I was about 10 in 1970 as well. The aquarium bug hit me at 5-6 when my dad brought home our first 10 gallon freshwater tank

@Lowell Lemon are Trev and Andy (Salt Water City) around?

Yes Trevor still owns the store. I think Andy is no longer there. I was in the store about 3 months ago. No one recognized me since I stopped selling them acrylic aquariums back in the day. I enjoyed looking in on the saltwater scene in Seattle area.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Was Brandon calling me out on something? I guess I will never know I granted him the ignore button long ago. He is a complete expert on fish since he has never kept one. Kind of like how people are experts on how to raise children but never had any themselves LOL!

I gather from the exchange that he does not realize I started and ran a successful aquaium manufacturing business, maintenance business, and designed and built out complete stores all before the Internet was "the thing". I cut my business teeth on reef aquariums while he was still sucking on lollipops and watching cartoons. That was back in the early days before any commercial light systems, wet/dry filters, and only a hand full of protein skimmer from Sanders. I spent time and money going to places like Quality Marine and learning the wholesale fish and invert game from Phil Shane and others. Such fun in those days!

Good old how much biology can you fit in a jar Brandon. You know maybe we should all get together and gift him a real tank so he can experience fish keeping for real. I have a couple of new tanks in the shop I never sold perhaps I should just send him one. What do you all think?

 

[HuduVudu]

I met them at the first store around 1990. Trev and Andy's store was a place I could go to and get solid information, and healthy fish and corals, and is on my list of go to places in my area.

OMG yes. I remember the first store. At the bottom of that weird office complex thing all the way in the back corner. I just remember the door always being steamed up. Trev helped drill my sump and made a spray bar. It is too bad I couldn't get my head wrapped around how to keep a tank. I loved the coral. I had never seen them in captivity until then. All I saw is what I saw when I was diving. I was enamoured ... still am.

My first SWC tank.

 

[HuduVudu]

Yes Trevor still owns the store. I think Andy is no longer there. I was in the store about 3 months ago. No one recognized me since I stopped selling them acrylic aquariums back in the day. I enjoyed looking in on the saltwater scene in Seattle area.

Indeed time marches on. Seattle holds good memories for me.

 

[HuduVudu]

Was Brandon calling me out on something?

You and everyone else on whatever team he thinks you are on. Pretty much that team would be the anti-Brandon team.

He is a complete expert on fish since he has never kept one. Kind of like how people are experts on how to raise children but never had any themselves LOL!

But he has maworkthreads.

I gather from the exchange that he does not realize I started and ran a successful aquaium manufacturing business, maintenance business, and designed and built out complete stores all before the Internet was "the thing".

Many many details in this world are lost on him. Shhhh don't tell him though. The good news is that he has me blocked so I can say these things.

That was back in the early days before any commercial light systems, wet/dry filters, and only a hand full of protein skimmer from Sanders.

I was so excited when I visited a fish store when I was in H.S. and they had a wet/dry. I couldn't believe how kewl it was and I wanted one. But where I was at that wasn't even going to happen, and I didn't even know where to go to order one. I wish I would have known about GARF back then. Things would have been much better for me.

I spent time and money going to places like Quality Marine and learning the wholesale fish and invert game from Phil Shane and others. Such fun in those days!

Because of 9/11 I had to go to LA from PHX to get stock. I was really excited to see the distributors. QA was my first stop and it felt good to have the business license so I could go poke around in the back. That was illuminating.

I also had the displeasure of visiting SDC. Yikes, made sure to never order from them. QA all the way.

You know maybe we should all get together and gift him a real tank so he can experience fish keeping for real.

What do you all think?

I think he would never go for it. It is so much easier to Monday morning QB than to have actual skin in the game.

 

[gbroadbridge]

You people are so young.

Best belly laugh for a while