Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[gbroadbridge]

Hudu, can I heckle you? I am getting bored.

IMO besides that store bought frozen food we need real food from a grocery store like shellfish that has not been frozen to death since the 80s. This is very important to me.

Of course I also eat it myself.

I actually went out today searching for fresh clams and mussels, and even the fishmonger didn't have them.
I wanted to try fresh vs the frozen I've been using so far.

The supermarket has tinned crap which I would not even eat.

Maybe they're all going to China.

Bizarre

 

[Paul B]

Gbroadbridge, can't you just walk down to a beach and find something? I remember your beaches are kind of tropical and clean but I am not sure.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Gbroadbridge, can't you just walk down to a beach and find something? I remember your beaches are kind of tropical and clean but I am not sure.

Well, the nearest ocean facing beach is about an hour drive away in Sydney traffic, but I didn't consider that.
And to be honest they are very polluted with sewage outlets and stuff.

Most seafood apart from finfish sold in Sydney is farmed or imported. For the fish, they go out 10 miles to catch them as the fish around Sydney Harbour are full of heavy metals.

I'm probably in trouble with Tourism Australia with all their pictures of empty beautiful beaches and the great barrier reef


Regards

 

[Paul B]

I was there in 1971 and the beaches and barrier reef was pretty pristine then. I don't remember leaving much pollution so it must have came from someone else.

 

[HK180]

For QT, but if I did it myself I'd opt for treatment based on skin/gill scrapings, not blasting the fish with copper, etc. I worry that copper, formalin, etc. will reduce the lifespan of fish unless they absolutely need it to treat a disease. I have experience working with small animals, but not fish, so in the meantime I'll leave it to the experts!

 

[Lowell Lemon]

For QT, but if I did it myself I'd opt for treatment based on skin/gill scrapings, not blasting the fish with copper, etc. I worry that copper, formalin, etc. will reduce the lifespan of fish unless they absolutely need it to treat a disease. I have experience working with small animals, but not fish, so in the meantime I'll leave it to the experts!

This is one of the most neglected aspects of prophylaxis. Proper diagnosis before treatment. I believe this contributes to needless fish mortality along with water quality swings during treatment. Most new hobbiest do not have the time or skills necessary to win the treatment battle. I was never able to climb that summit without high fish loss. I had to adopt other methods to succeed.

 

[HuduVudu]

Hudu, can I heckle you? I am getting bored.

Yes, Paul yes you can because you might spur me into doing something crazy like this:

 

[Paul B]

I love it.

 

[HuduVudu]

Proper diagnosis before treatment.

Yes yes and more yes.

Jay has/had access to much of the equipment neccessary to accomplish this. The average hobbyist doesn't. Worst most hobbyst are trying to show their epeen with how cheaply they can accomplish the hobby. This is a giant recipe for disaster. Also because of years of a verfication feedback loop Jay now has a calibrated eye and can probably determine disease without instrument verification. This is a skill, a skill that almost all hobbyist do not possess.

I believe this contributes to needless fish mortality along with water quality swings during treatment.

Once again proper always running QT is essential. Stress from water quality issues is huge cause of death. The problem is that it isn't a direct cause of death. Getting a fish feeding is paramount, but because of water quality swings do this can be an insurmountable hill to climb.

Add in improper medication from the supply chain and you can expect that even a fish that manages to eat might not make it because of the devistation wrought on it's digestive system.

Most new hobbiest do not have the time or skills necessary to win the treatment battle.

The worst part is the ones that won't recogonize this. This seems to be very common among new hobbyists. They end up making up what needs to be done, or worse cutting corners thinking that the thing that they cut out wasn't important. Never knowing if it was or not.

I was never able to climb that summit without high fish loss. I had to adopt other methods to succeed.

I think everyone that is advocating against QT has come to this conclusion and ends up doing what you have done ... apdopting other methods.

For hobbyists I think everyone will eventually come to this place, if they can manage to not blow out.

 

[Jubei2006]

I do believe and agree that a healthy mature system benefits the existing fish but if a foreign pathogen is introduced via a new fish or contamination then all bets are off.
if your present fish can fight off diseases in your closed system that to me is a balanced system and should work well until it becomes unbalanced and that can be a result of something as simple as a power outage or addition of a diseased specimen which will stress the system enough to have some disease pop up.
It seems to be that the variables outweigh the the likelihood of success and make the argument for quarantine all the more compelling.

I will never go back to not quarantining. Everything that goes in the tank has been quarantined (including 'verts). My 29g has no fish in it now, just corals. So it will be a coral display/quarantine, frag grow out until they are stable and big enough to go in the 500. As I said, I will be setting up the old 125 as a quarantine for live rock from KP aquatics/Tampa Bay Saltwater. Pest will be dealt with, and I'll try to keep most of the life alive on the rock (except bad crabs, snails, aiptasia and such).

 

[A;exr54]

I find the most causes of death of new fish is stress. So I try to alleviate that as much as possible.
I don't use a net. I don't quarantine unless the fish looks to be on the cusp of death in the bag or looks to have abnormalities.
I float for temp, then do a slow drip in the bag, then slowly drain 95% of the water from the bag then add to the DT directly from bag.. nice and easy.
I only do it this way because my tank is well established.
I haven't had a disease yet.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I've read mostly all of the 27+ pages in this thread, less the posts from ignored individuals. All hail the ignore function!

So here's my $.02... I don't QT and have developed some acclimation processes to limit the risks. I've found that over the years, I lost more fish in QT than I did when I put fish that met my "Health Criteria" directly in my DT. I'm not too keen on the "immunity" theory, but I do think healthy, stress free fish, in environments that limit the population of bacteria and parasites definitely create conditions that mimic immunity. I do employ a UV, but just run it to control algae and maybe some viruses.

I also recognize that some populate new tanks much more quickly than I would. My methods would not work for them. I think QT is required when fish (and other wet things) will be placed in environments that create a lot of stress and don't have the capacity to limit pathogens.

 

[flyfisher2]

I find the most causes of death of new fish is stress. So I try to alleviate that as much as possible.
I don't use a net. I don't quarantine unless the fish looks to be on the cusp of death in the bag or looks to have abnormalities.
I float for temp, then do a slow drip in the bag, then slowly drain 95% of the water from the bag then add to the DT directly from bag.. nice and easy.
I only do it this way because my tank is well established.
I haven't had a disease yet.

Would you share the age of your tank with us? I hope your streak of luck continues and you NEVER have disease. Not fun when it does happen.

 

[Jesterrace]

I think QT is generally the best practice, BUT I have never done it. Why? Because I don't have the space or time to monitor another tank of any kind and as shown in previous posts QT sometimes causes more harm than good. A lot of it also depends on the setup you have. A heavily stocked tank with more expensive fish and you should definitely QT. A lighter stocked tank with more entry level fish and it's more of a personal judgement call.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I find the most causes of death of new fish is stress. So I try to alleviate that as much as possible.
I don't use a net. I don't quarantine unless the fish looks to be on the cusp of death in the bag or looks to have abnormalities.
I float for temp, then do a slow drip in the bag, then slowly drain 95% of the water from the bag then add to the DT directly from bag.. nice and easy.
I only do it this way because my tank is well established.
I haven't had a disease yet.

I think you've been lucky.

 

[A;exr54]

I think you've been lucky.

I would agree it was luck if it hasn’t been over 15 years of me doing it this way and it working out fine.
At some point luck ends and it just ends up being ok.
But to each their own. I do it my way. You do it yours. Whatever works for you is great.

Also I don’t stock my tank daily. It’s rare I even add anything and can go years in between adding new inhabitants to my tank.

 

[A;exr54]

Would you share the age of your tank with us? I hope your streak of luck continues and you NEVER have disease. Not fun when it does happen.

My current DT is about 8 years old.
I’ve been doing it this way for about 15 years.
I’ve been reef keeping for about 30 years.
I’m not new to this.
But my way is not for everyone. I know what to look out for. I wouldn’t add anything with a flatworm on it, or a fish visibly sick for example.

I can go years in between adding new inhabitants to my tank.

 

[Jesterrace]

I would agree it was luck if it hasn’t been over 15 years of me doing it this way and it working out fine.
At some point luck ends and it just ends up being ok.
But to each their own. I do it my way. You do it yours. Whatever works for you is great.

Also I don’t stock my tank daily. It’s rare I even add anything and can go years in between adding new inhabitants to my tank.

I think you made a good point there. Much like people who mess around with their water parameters, some folks aren't content to just let things be for a good while when it comes to stocking. The more often you are adding things to your tank there is more potential for stress and other issues which can affect the longevity of it's inhabitants. I've adopted a wait and monitor technique (never buy a fish straight out of the bag or when it first comes into my LFS) which has served me very well. Other than the death of a captive bred PJ Cardinal after 3.5 years of having it, I haven't had any losses for any fish that I have adhered to this method. Not too bad when you consider that one of my fish is a Blue Star Leopard Wrasse.

 

[A;exr54]

I think you made a good point there. Much like people who mess around with their water parameters, some folks aren't content to just let things be for a good while when it comes to stocking. The more often you are adding things to your tank there is more potential for stress and other issues which can affect the longevity of it's inhabitants. I've adopted a wait and monitor technique (never buy a fish straight out of the bag or when it first comes into my LFS) which has served me very well. Other than the death of a captive bred PJ Cardinal after 3.5 years of having it, I haven't had any losses for any fish that I have adhered to this method. Not too bad when you consider that one of my fish is a Blue Star Leopard Wrasse.

I think it’s funny how people keep calling me lucky because of methods I use that work for me.
I’ve never in all my years of keeping a reef tank have had to treat ich. I don’t consider that luck. I consider it some experience and just some common sense.

The majority of deaths I’ve dealt with over the years I would attribute to old age. Or DOA’s.
My most recent casualty was a bengai cardinal that I had for about 8 years. This was about 18 months ago.

I just try my best to keep my hands out of my tank. It’s not a revolving door.

I’ve been adding a few things the last month or so, I’ve been splurging.
So far I’ve added a BSJ (a week ago), purple dottyback, and a tail spot blenny, it’s been about 2 months since added and they are healthy. I am also adding a RBTA this weekend.

This will be it for a long time.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I think it’s funny how people keep calling me lucky because of methods I use that work for me.
I’ve never in all my years of keeping a reef tank have had to treat ich. I don’t consider that luck. I consider it some experience and just some common sense.

The majority of deaths I’ve dealt with over the years I would attribute to old age. Or DOA’s.
My most recent casualty was a bengai cardinal that I had for about 8 years. This was about 18 months ago.

I just try my best to keep my hands out of my tank. It’s not a revolving door.

I’ve been adding a few things the last month or so, I’ve been splurging.
So far I’ve added a BSJ (a week ago), purple dottyback, and a tail spot blenny, it’s been about 2 months since added and they are healthy. I am also adding a RBTA this weekend.

This will be it for a long time.

I think keeping the hands out of the tank and not continually stressing over tiny chemistry changes makes a big difference.

Starting with live rock, rather than bottles of dead bacteria spores also makes a big difference.

My latest tank build which started with dead sterilised rock and bottled bac has not been a happy tank. It's starting to settle down now after 9 months but I fiddled too much trying to stabilise it and have lost a few fish friends.

best would have been chuck in cleaning crew and leave it alone for 6 months

regards
Graham.